ok...we just got home from the vet's office, and we have a few bits of news on Alex and his condition...
first, in the last thread i started, i was very upset because Alex was having so much trouble with his new found freedom to use the litter box whenever he pleased. like ive mentioned in the past, both my wife and i work, and Alex is home alone for sometimes as much as 10 hours a day. his unsupervised litter box trips were becoming a problem because he was unable to effectively avoid his waste and was becoming depressed as a result. he is always visibly upset when he has a bathroom mishap, but the frequency of them was really getting to him. we decided to try to apply a schedule to Alex's litter box activities, and so far so good. im pleased to say that Alex appears content to wait for us to help, probably in large part because he is so mindful of where he does his business and how well he accomplishes the task.
also, the vet has given us three doses of Panacur for Alex is try to finally rid the little guy of this persistent problem. we will be giving him a mixture of a Panacur powder, water, and Karo syrup every three weeks to try to drive those nasty little buggers out once and for all. i REALLY hope it works this time.
also, we addressed Alex's disability in a bit more detail with the vet, and she noticed that Alex has absolutely no use in his rear legs. much to my surprise, she echoed Bendy's suggestion from a few posts ago. (not that i doubt Bendy's judgement, but i admittedly thought it a bit extreme.) she said that Alex was not using the legs, so he appeared to be an excellent candidate for amputation. i had been kicking around the idea a bit, but couldnt get past the idea that it seemed extreme. but the fact is, Alex cannot and will never be able to walk on his hind legs. all they do is get in the way in the litter box, and hinder his movement. if he didnt have them, he would be able to get around easier, and we also wouldnt have to worry about him developing pain in his legs as they knuckle from not being used. and the only thing that keeps Alex from successfully covering his waste in the litter box is his legs. he just winds up burying his legs. perhaps he would be able to regain a certain degree of independence in the potty again.
have any of you had experience with cats who have had both hind legs amputated? my main concern at this point is the psycological impact it could have. i mean, Alex has done a tremendous job rebounding from all the hardships in his life thus far, but i want to be sure that he will likely make the adjustment well.
The FlyerFly
latest developments on Alex P. Kitten.....
-
The FlyerFly
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:00 pm
Re: latest developments on Alex P. Kitten.....
Some bugs can take a week or 10 days of Panacur to get rid of, but it takes care of several varieties, in case he has others. The good news is it doesn't taste bad and is easy to mix into food or something.
I suspect Alex's adjustment to a bilateral amputation would be minimal. After all, the limbs are of NO use to him, and, in fact, they're in his way. There would also be that much less weight for him to pull, easing his load, and it would probably clear the way for cart use if you desired.
I suspect Alex's adjustment to a bilateral amputation would be minimal. After all, the limbs are of NO use to him, and, in fact, they're in his way. There would also be that much less weight for him to pull, easing his load, and it would probably clear the way for cart use if you desired.
-
Bendy Kitty
- Founding Member
- Posts: 2674
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 7:00 pm
- Location: central NC
- Contact:
i've been pondering
how to manage such an amputation, even tho no one here needs it. but who knows, in the future we might have a kitty that does.
You pointed out that it woudl be a painful recovery. We remember Jean-Claude recovering from the spiderbite - it was horrible.
Mom thought that keeping the kitty good and stoned on pain meds for at least the first few days might ease things. They woudln't know (or care) about the pain.
Legume had a lot of painful surgeries. The cystotomy - where they litterally scraped the inside lining off his bladder (it was thick and strange - the surgeon had never seen anything like it) was veyr painful. They put a patch on his neck that gave him excellent pain relief and we didn't have to pill him.
It helped him enormously, he was much happier afterwards.
There was a tiny chance of saving Mimosa's leg (which was shattered and badly infected). It was stabilized in a cast and mostly just made life difficult for her. Mom was mostly worried about the infection (having lost little Sammi that way) and decided to loose the leg.
Mom has noticed that has developed a much more casual attitude towards amputation than most people. I guess we've had enough animals who lost tails or limbs that she thinks of it as standard therapy. She did ask her vet if when we get to 12 amputations can we get one free. silly mom.
I really do think that Alex's quality of life would be improved with this exteme measure. I am not saying it isn't extreme, not at all! It definitly is. But so is Alex's situation.
I'm glad that in other ways he is healthy enough for the vet to consider it. I think I remember that he had been sick with liver trouble? or maybe kidney trouble?
btw, around Xmas time mom usually returns to the Phila area for at least a few days. it would be very very neat if she could meet you and Alex!
Bendy Kitty
You pointed out that it woudl be a painful recovery. We remember Jean-Claude recovering from the spiderbite - it was horrible.
Mom thought that keeping the kitty good and stoned on pain meds for at least the first few days might ease things. They woudln't know (or care) about the pain.
Legume had a lot of painful surgeries. The cystotomy - where they litterally scraped the inside lining off his bladder (it was thick and strange - the surgeon had never seen anything like it) was veyr painful. They put a patch on his neck that gave him excellent pain relief and we didn't have to pill him.
It helped him enormously, he was much happier afterwards.
There was a tiny chance of saving Mimosa's leg (which was shattered and badly infected). It was stabilized in a cast and mostly just made life difficult for her. Mom was mostly worried about the infection (having lost little Sammi that way) and decided to loose the leg.
Mom has noticed that has developed a much more casual attitude towards amputation than most people. I guess we've had enough animals who lost tails or limbs that she thinks of it as standard therapy. She did ask her vet if when we get to 12 amputations can we get one free. silly mom.
I really do think that Alex's quality of life would be improved with this exteme measure. I am not saying it isn't extreme, not at all! It definitly is. But so is Alex's situation.
I'm glad that in other ways he is healthy enough for the vet to consider it. I think I remember that he had been sick with liver trouble? or maybe kidney trouble?
btw, around Xmas time mom usually returns to the Phila area for at least a few days. it would be very very neat if she could meet you and Alex!
Bendy Kitty
Re: Alex P. Kitten, and the bad worms.....
Have been offline - am still; at the library trying to send e-mails to fix computers....Am sorry to see my dear friend Alex P. is having troubles.
As for the roundworms, baby Clyde has a visious problem with roundworms. Remember, he also has intussesion which is a condition where the intestine turns inside out...just to let you know, it is pretty serious with BC and this is what I do and it WORKS. Once a month, I wormer all the cats in the house -one dose. If I get late, BC gets an upset intestinal track. I was using the all-worm wormer, but they only have to be treated for roundworm so I switched; and it is liquid and easier to administer to ALL of them.(Droncit is one, Drontel the other - I always get the two confused without looking it up!) The does is 1 cc per 8 lb of cat; the vet office gives me a bottle of it. You cannot get rid of roundworms, but you can control the problems - every time little Alex P. gets upset, he is stressed, his roundworm condition will be aggrevated. As life is aggrevating him lately, this little condition will just add to the aggrevation. please think about trying this. Ask your vet - this treatment regime shouldnot be harmful and should be worth a try!! ( you can also buy this same medication over the counter at drugstore, sold as tx for people pinworms - but I am not home to give you the generic name!)
I cannot really give an opinion on the toileting/amputatiuon situation.... I don't know how you feed ALex. Maybe a feeding schedule would result in a workable toileting schedule?? it sort of worked with porkchop, but not 100%!! Since a cat's nature is to dig and turn about in toileting, this is more difficult. Also, someone told me that dogs are proud of their waste - cats are offended; that is why a cat buries his waste so very well. A cat who smells of waste will become very upset ( as BC was when he came home from vet operation smelling of mess) I do not remember that Alex has any linguring signs of viral infection or anything of that nature. BC has a chronic viral condition- anesthesia and surgery risky for him because of that. but if he is upset, maybe this is an answer. you have been creative so far with him; I am possitive the answer will come to you!
Give Alex P. a scritch from me!
As for the roundworms, baby Clyde has a visious problem with roundworms. Remember, he also has intussesion which is a condition where the intestine turns inside out...just to let you know, it is pretty serious with BC and this is what I do and it WORKS. Once a month, I wormer all the cats in the house -one dose. If I get late, BC gets an upset intestinal track. I was using the all-worm wormer, but they only have to be treated for roundworm so I switched; and it is liquid and easier to administer to ALL of them.(Droncit is one, Drontel the other - I always get the two confused without looking it up!) The does is 1 cc per 8 lb of cat; the vet office gives me a bottle of it. You cannot get rid of roundworms, but you can control the problems - every time little Alex P. gets upset, he is stressed, his roundworm condition will be aggrevated. As life is aggrevating him lately, this little condition will just add to the aggrevation. please think about trying this. Ask your vet - this treatment regime shouldnot be harmful and should be worth a try!! ( you can also buy this same medication over the counter at drugstore, sold as tx for people pinworms - but I am not home to give you the generic name!)
I cannot really give an opinion on the toileting/amputatiuon situation.... I don't know how you feed ALex. Maybe a feeding schedule would result in a workable toileting schedule?? it sort of worked with porkchop, but not 100%!! Since a cat's nature is to dig and turn about in toileting, this is more difficult. Also, someone told me that dogs are proud of their waste - cats are offended; that is why a cat buries his waste so very well. A cat who smells of waste will become very upset ( as BC was when he came home from vet operation smelling of mess) I do not remember that Alex has any linguring signs of viral infection or anything of that nature. BC has a chronic viral condition- anesthesia and surgery risky for him because of that. but if he is upset, maybe this is an answer. you have been creative so far with him; I am possitive the answer will come to you!
Give Alex P. a scritch from me!
Urology
Hi FF, I have been thinking over what you said about the problem he was having:
> his ankles and feet are usually in the way of his urine stream.
With the cooperation of other people, could you find out what it would be like if he were to have a visit to a urologist and be adjusted so he could urinate more like a girl, in other words not send the stream so far out where it hits his legs and ankles?
First, perhaps people on this Message Board with paralyzed female cats could report how it works when their female cat goes to the litterbox. Presumably her pelvis/bottom is in contact with the litter. Does she wet the litter right by her bottom, or out away from her body, and if so how far away?
Another idea is to contact a person who was on this Message Board recently in April and I think she posted her email address. Her name is Karen. Her posting was under the title of JOEY and was done on 4/16/04. She lost Joey that week after a long battle. In her original message she states that Joey had his penis amputated due to recurrent urinary tract infections. Karen might be willing to tell you about his surgery and about how it affected his urination afterward. Was he still continent, and where did his stream go?
The last step would be to talk to the vet and find out if such a thing could be done, and what are the chances that he might be left incontinent. I only know human female anatomy. There are two sphincters that have to work together in order to urinate. One is on the bladder and the other is at the end of the urethra (hope that's the right word). If male cats are like that, then if he lost the sphincter at the end of the penis, he would still have the sphincter on the bladder, which would be untouched by any surgical adjustment of the external organ.
> his ankles and feet are usually in the way of his urine stream.
With the cooperation of other people, could you find out what it would be like if he were to have a visit to a urologist and be adjusted so he could urinate more like a girl, in other words not send the stream so far out where it hits his legs and ankles?
First, perhaps people on this Message Board with paralyzed female cats could report how it works when their female cat goes to the litterbox. Presumably her pelvis/bottom is in contact with the litter. Does she wet the litter right by her bottom, or out away from her body, and if so how far away?
Another idea is to contact a person who was on this Message Board recently in April and I think she posted her email address. Her name is Karen. Her posting was under the title of JOEY and was done on 4/16/04. She lost Joey that week after a long battle. In her original message she states that Joey had his penis amputated due to recurrent urinary tract infections. Karen might be willing to tell you about his surgery and about how it affected his urination afterward. Was he still continent, and where did his stream go?
The last step would be to talk to the vet and find out if such a thing could be done, and what are the chances that he might be left incontinent. I only know human female anatomy. There are two sphincters that have to work together in order to urinate. One is on the bladder and the other is at the end of the urethra (hope that's the right word). If male cats are like that, then if he lost the sphincter at the end of the penis, he would still have the sphincter on the bladder, which would be untouched by any surgical adjustment of the external organ.
-
Jan
Re: latest developments on Alex P. Kitten.....
I've been going insane trying to deal with an overload of kittens here *sigh* but thought I'd add my 2-cents worth here. Gabriel was born with half of both hind legs missing, and my first thought about amputation with him, is it's setting him up for seriuos UTIs his whole life. Things have improved drastically regarding his stumps, so things are going well. Perhaps if a paper type litter was used as opposed to clumping or clay it may work out for Alex P.Kitten getting his legs amputated. It sounds like a frightening prospect at the same time. I'd certainly mention UTI possibilities to the vet however. Glad his poop problems are being resolved. Poor guy has been through so much already that he deserves every chance in the world to live. Nose rubs from my flock of many! Jan
-
The FlyerFly
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:00 pm
Re: i've been pondering
i was a bit concerned about the level of pain for Alex with an amputation, but actually, it may not be as bad as i thought. the reason is Alex's hip dysplasia. there is really no bone connection in the leg at all, and the whole limb could be removed while only having to cut skin and tissue. not having to cut bone makes a HUGE difference in amounts of discomfort for Alex.
and your memory serves you well. when we took Alex to be fixed, we had the standard blood work done and it was revealed that he had liver problems. he was on a one month regimen of Zentonil, and was good enough after his treatment to go through the surgery.
as far the Philly area visit, mention it again closer to that time, and we'll see what we could come up with. honestly though, i probably wont be able to take Alex out and about because his anxiety levels skyrocket when we just take him to the front porch.
The FlyerFly
and your memory serves you well. when we took Alex to be fixed, we had the standard blood work done and it was revealed that he had liver problems. he was on a one month regimen of Zentonil, and was good enough after his treatment to go through the surgery.
as far the Philly area visit, mention it again closer to that time, and we'll see what we could come up with. honestly though, i probably wont be able to take Alex out and about because his anxiety levels skyrocket when we just take him to the front porch.
The FlyerFly
Re: Alex P. Kitten, and the bad worms.....
"( you can also buy this same medication over the counter at drugstore, sold as tx for people pinworms - but I am not home to give you the generic name!) " I bet that's pyrantel pamoate (Strongid,Nemex, etc). Droncit and Drontal are both praziquantel, but Drontal has pyrantel pamoate as well. Praziquantel does a nice job with tapeworms. 
PU
Hi FlyerFly,
Below is some information about PU, or perineal urethrostomy. I have reservations when reading what it says about the greater likelihood of UTI's because of dirt entering the urethra, since he would be sitting in the litter. I wonder if there is something less radical that would still redirect the stream?
Good explanation of Perineal Urethrostomy
Below is some information about PU, or perineal urethrostomy. I have reservations when reading what it says about the greater likelihood of UTI's because of dirt entering the urethra, since he would be sitting in the litter. I wonder if there is something less radical that would still redirect the stream?
Good explanation of Perineal Urethrostomy
-
Bendy Kitty
- Founding Member
- Posts: 2674
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2001 7:00 pm
- Location: central NC
- Contact:
Yep, Legume did have PU surgery
in his case he had severe urine scald and in the process of healing, the scar tissue strangled his urethra.
He had PU surgery twice. the first time the opening healed shut - they think because the scald was still healing around it.
The second time worked great. Mom was told that most cats don't need it done twice, that they live long happy lives. There is a slight risk of incontinence but that wasn't an issue with 'Gumie because he was already incontinent.
It was pricey, but well worth it!!!!!
purrrs
bendy
He had PU surgery twice. the first time the opening healed shut - they think because the scald was still healing around it.
The second time worked great. Mom was told that most cats don't need it done twice, that they live long happy lives. There is a slight risk of incontinence but that wasn't an issue with 'Gumie because he was already incontinent.
It was pricey, but well worth it!!!!!
purrrs
bendy
Bendy, didn't Legume have a PU?
"Another idea is to contact a person who was on this Message Board recently in April and I think she posted her email address. Her name is Karen. Her posting was under the title of JOEY and was done on 4/16/04. She lost Joey that week after a long battle. In her original message she states that Joey had his penis amputated due to recurrent urinary tract infection"
That surgery is called PU, and it's usually done on males who frequently get blocked. If I recall correctly, Bendy should have more info.
That surgery is called PU, and it's usually done on males who frequently get blocked. If I recall correctly, Bendy should have more info.
Panacur
> also, the vet has given us three doses of Panacur for Alex is try to finally rid the little guy of this persistent problem.
The following information is from The Pill Book Guide to Medication for Your Dog and Cat:
"Fenbendazole (fen-BEN-duh-zole)
Brand Name
Panacaur [V]
Type of Drug
Anthelmintic/dewormer.
Prescribed for
Cats: roundworm (Toxocara cati, T. leonina), hookworm (Ancylostoma tubaeforme, A. braziliense, Unicinaria stenocephala), tapeworm (Taenia taeniaformis), lungworm (Aelurostrongylus abstrusus, Capillaria aerophilia), and lung fluke (Paragonimus kellicoti).
General Information
Fenbendazole is classified as a benzimidazole. The parent drug, thiabendazole, was developed around 1960 and is credited with being the first modern dewormer. Since then, extensive research has developed a number of related drugs that are safe and effective against a broad spectrum of parasites in all species of animals and humans. This group of drugs kills the parasite by disrupting its energy metabolism.
Fenbendazole is FDA approved for use in dogs and a number of other species, including a number of wild cat species. It is not labeled for use in domestic cats, but is widely prescribed and appears to be one of the most effective an safe dewormers currently on the market.
It is labeled for use against roundworm, hookworm, and whipworm, the major intestinal parasites of dogs. It removes Taenia tapeworm but not the very common Dipylidium caninum. It is often used for parasitic infections that are not listed on the package label, including lungworm, lung fluke, Strongyloides, and Giardia.
Fenbendazole is used to treat a number of zoonotic parasites. Roundworm is responsible for visceral larva migrans and hookworm for cutaneous larva migrans. Giardia causes diarrhea in animals and humans. These parasites may be transmitted through contaminated food, water, or other material (See Zoonotic Diseases in Dogs and Cats.)
Cautions and Warnings
- Contact your veterinarian if you think your dog or cat may be having an adverse reaction to fenbendazole.
- U.S. Federal law restricts the use of this drug by or on the lawful written or oral order of a licensed veterinarian within the context of a valid veterinarian-client-patient relationship.
Possible Side Effects
- Rare: vomiting
Drug Interactions
None known.
Food Interactions
Efficacy is increased when given with food.
Usual Dose
Single doses (even at high dosages) are not effective in dogs and cats. At least 3 consecutive daily doses must be given.
Dogs and Cats: 23 mg/lb for 3 consecutive days. Other dosage schedules may be indicated for some parasitic infections.
Drug Form: 222 mg/g (22.2%) granules. Liquid and paste formulations marketed for large animals are also used in dogs and cats.
Overdosage
Doses up to 100 times the recommended dose are tolerated without serious side effects. An accidental overdose may cause minor vomiting and diarrhea. Hypersensitivity reactions to dying parasites have been seen, particularly at high dosages. In case of accidental ingestion of overdose, contact your veterinarian or the National Animal Poison Control Center. ALWAYS bring the prescription bottle or container with you if you go for treatment.
Special Populations
Pregnancy/Lactation
Fenbendazole is considered safe to use in pregnant and lactating animals. It greatly reduces transmission of roundworm and hookworm from mother to puppies when given at the normal dose from the 40th day of pregnancy through the 14th day after whelping.
Puppies/Kittens
Fenbendazole is considered safe to use in puppies and kittens.
Senior animals
Fenbendazole is considered safe to use in older animals."
The following information is from The Pill Book Guide to Medication for Your Dog and Cat:
"Fenbendazole (fen-BEN-duh-zole)
Brand Name
Panacaur [V]
Type of Drug
Anthelmintic/dewormer.
Prescribed for
Cats: roundworm (Toxocara cati, T. leonina), hookworm (Ancylostoma tubaeforme, A. braziliense, Unicinaria stenocephala), tapeworm (Taenia taeniaformis), lungworm (Aelurostrongylus abstrusus, Capillaria aerophilia), and lung fluke (Paragonimus kellicoti).
General Information
Fenbendazole is classified as a benzimidazole. The parent drug, thiabendazole, was developed around 1960 and is credited with being the first modern dewormer. Since then, extensive research has developed a number of related drugs that are safe and effective against a broad spectrum of parasites in all species of animals and humans. This group of drugs kills the parasite by disrupting its energy metabolism.
Fenbendazole is FDA approved for use in dogs and a number of other species, including a number of wild cat species. It is not labeled for use in domestic cats, but is widely prescribed and appears to be one of the most effective an safe dewormers currently on the market.
It is labeled for use against roundworm, hookworm, and whipworm, the major intestinal parasites of dogs. It removes Taenia tapeworm but not the very common Dipylidium caninum. It is often used for parasitic infections that are not listed on the package label, including lungworm, lung fluke, Strongyloides, and Giardia.
Fenbendazole is used to treat a number of zoonotic parasites. Roundworm is responsible for visceral larva migrans and hookworm for cutaneous larva migrans. Giardia causes diarrhea in animals and humans. These parasites may be transmitted through contaminated food, water, or other material (See Zoonotic Diseases in Dogs and Cats.)
Cautions and Warnings
- Contact your veterinarian if you think your dog or cat may be having an adverse reaction to fenbendazole.
- U.S. Federal law restricts the use of this drug by or on the lawful written or oral order of a licensed veterinarian within the context of a valid veterinarian-client-patient relationship.
Possible Side Effects
- Rare: vomiting
Drug Interactions
None known.
Food Interactions
Efficacy is increased when given with food.
Usual Dose
Single doses (even at high dosages) are not effective in dogs and cats. At least 3 consecutive daily doses must be given.
Dogs and Cats: 23 mg/lb for 3 consecutive days. Other dosage schedules may be indicated for some parasitic infections.
Drug Form: 222 mg/g (22.2%) granules. Liquid and paste formulations marketed for large animals are also used in dogs and cats.
Overdosage
Doses up to 100 times the recommended dose are tolerated without serious side effects. An accidental overdose may cause minor vomiting and diarrhea. Hypersensitivity reactions to dying parasites have been seen, particularly at high dosages. In case of accidental ingestion of overdose, contact your veterinarian or the National Animal Poison Control Center. ALWAYS bring the prescription bottle or container with you if you go for treatment.
Special Populations
Pregnancy/Lactation
Fenbendazole is considered safe to use in pregnant and lactating animals. It greatly reduces transmission of roundworm and hookworm from mother to puppies when given at the normal dose from the 40th day of pregnancy through the 14th day after whelping.
Puppies/Kittens
Fenbendazole is considered safe to use in puppies and kittens.
Senior animals
Fenbendazole is considered safe to use in older animals."
Other Dewormers
> s far as the deworming meds, he has had Drontil the most often. he has also had Droncit and Strongit at other time
Hi FF,
Just copied the info on Panacur (please excuse typo in spelling of name) and if you want the info on the other three please let me know. I think I would just copy the "Cautions and Warnings" on each one to save space. Good luck with the Panacur. Hope it works!
Hi FF,
Just copied the info on Panacur (please excuse typo in spelling of name) and if you want the info on the other three please let me know. I think I would just copy the "Cautions and Warnings" on each one to save space. Good luck with the Panacur. Hope it works!
How far would they amputate?
If he has stubs then you have to watch out for sores on the tips of his stubs. Would there be a chance of nerve damage that could cause incontinence? I know that amputating tails can sometimes lead to incontinence.
Make sure you have all of the facts before you make any decisions.
Would there be risk of infection at the amputation site?
Make sure you have all of the facts before you make any decisions.
Would there be risk of infection at the amputation site?
-
The FlyerFly
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:00 pm
Re: How far would they amputate?
these are all things that we'll be looking into further once we get him an ultrasound, and see the results from that. were going to make sure that Alex is healthy internally first before we really start to persue any approach toward amputation.
but if he were to have the hind legs amputated, they would be able to be taken right fromthe hip. he has hip dysplasia, and there is no true joint between the hip and leg. so essentially, all that would have to be cut is skin and muscle. that will drastically reduce the discomfort level for Alex, as there will be no need to cut bone. that is often the most difficult thing for an amputee. and weve been told that the wound should be mostly healed within 2 weeks.
first things first though...the ultrasound has to be good before we move forward at all.
The FlyerFly
but if he were to have the hind legs amputated, they would be able to be taken right fromthe hip. he has hip dysplasia, and there is no true joint between the hip and leg. so essentially, all that would have to be cut is skin and muscle. that will drastically reduce the discomfort level for Alex, as there will be no need to cut bone. that is often the most difficult thing for an amputee. and weve been told that the wound should be mostly healed within 2 weeks.
first things first though...the ultrasound has to be good before we move forward at all.
The FlyerFly