Dogs: Any encouragement welcome
Re: I was thinking the same thing
Correction, they don't actually recommend two weeks then taper, they recommend tapering after about two weeks which is slightly different.
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Debbie
Re: I was thinking the same thing
I think we will look into the playpen thing - instead of a crate. I'll also make sure to ask my vet tomorrow about theh prednisone, This vet (chiropractor) is really tops in his field, and I believe in him. He recommended to stop the prednisone after 7 days so he could treat coty chiropractically. BUT - I will speak with him again tomorrow (I can't wait - the appt is at noon) about mri and prednisone. If an MRI would be helpful we would do it. Good news - coty peed just before - a really longk long pee!! I tried to express his bladder, but nothing happened. Then about 2 minutes later, he peed really hard! IT was great...d on't know if its becuase of my manipulation or not?? Thanks agian - I'll post tomorrow with doc's report!
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Miller's Mom
Re: Hi Debbie- more thoughts regarding Coty
Hi Debbie,
I was wondering if your vet has mentioned/suggested/recommended a referral to a neurologist? Or have you asked?
Thirteen years ago I had a little spaniel named Daisy who herniated a disc. My mistake at that time was to not be more proactive in her diagnosis and treatment. At the time there was no Google and this discussion board didn't exist, so I was ignorant of the options and didn't even know there were specialists like neurology, cardiology, etc. just like in medicine. When Miller went down I immediately pushed to go straight to a specialist - and I adore my vet too - he's a brainiac - but my experience with Daisy taught me to advocate early and often and take charge of the process.
If your vets were puzzled by the x-rays then it's time for an MRI. Push for a diagnosis - "trouble with the hind legs" isn't going to cut it. And until you have a definitive diagnosis, I wouldn't let anyone do any manipulation of the spine as it may cause more damage.
I don't know what part of the country you live in, but certainly you can find a neurologist or your vet should know one to refer you to.
Just needed to share my experience. I know how confusing and overwhelming it all was when it happened to me the first time with Daisy. Hindsight is 20 20 and if I knew then what I know now I would have done a better job helping Daisy.
Lori
I was wondering if your vet has mentioned/suggested/recommended a referral to a neurologist? Or have you asked?
Thirteen years ago I had a little spaniel named Daisy who herniated a disc. My mistake at that time was to not be more proactive in her diagnosis and treatment. At the time there was no Google and this discussion board didn't exist, so I was ignorant of the options and didn't even know there were specialists like neurology, cardiology, etc. just like in medicine. When Miller went down I immediately pushed to go straight to a specialist - and I adore my vet too - he's a brainiac - but my experience with Daisy taught me to advocate early and often and take charge of the process.
If your vets were puzzled by the x-rays then it's time for an MRI. Push for a diagnosis - "trouble with the hind legs" isn't going to cut it. And until you have a definitive diagnosis, I wouldn't let anyone do any manipulation of the spine as it may cause more damage.
I don't know what part of the country you live in, but certainly you can find a neurologist or your vet should know one to refer you to.
Just needed to share my experience. I know how confusing and overwhelming it all was when it happened to me the first time with Daisy. Hindsight is 20 20 and if I knew then what I know now I would have done a better job helping Daisy.
Lori
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Debbie
F/U - Vet Visit
Thanks.. we just got back a bit ago from the chiropractor. There's been a little improvement, more so on his right leg. The Dr has recommended some therapies for me to do at home. We go back next Friday. Dr. said that let's see how the next 10 days go. Actually, the Dr. will be joining a new facility opening in 10 days which is a new state-of-the-art animal therapy facility, including water therapies.He thinking that Coty may benefit and probably will require therapy. Of course -the place is 45 minutes away!! I asked a lot of questions today - last time hubby went and asked none. I asked about having an MRI and he stated that the only reason at this point for an MRI would be 1) if I absolutely needed to know what happened and 2) if we were to do something different about his condition. He stated that regardless of what the MRI would show - at this point, his treatment options would not change. Also, we talked about crating Coty. He stated again, that at this point, crating isn't necessary; just to continue to keep him confined to a small area. He also told me not to discourage him trying to get up and move around a little and provided me with three "exercises" to do with him. Basically, he stated that the damage has been done, and at this point, his condition is not going to get any worse by not crating (or continuing to take prednisone. Of course, all done reasonably. I didn't ask about a neurologist; however, I'm pretty sure that this guy would have thought of sending me there if it thought it was called for. I guess you can tell that I'm putting a lot of faith in this doctor! He has helped so many dogs regain their mobility - I personally know of 3 dogs he has gotten walking again. Coty does seem to be gaining some strength - let's hope it continues!
Re: F/U - Vet Visit
Pleeeease get a second opinion. Please, for the sake of your dog.
> including water therapies. He thinking that Coty may benefit and probably will require therapy. Of course -the place is 45 minutes away!!
He has one thing right. Water therapy is helpful. My dog goes to water therapy, it is a 40-minute drive to get there, we go twice a week, and it is worth it. However, based on everything else he said, I'd find another place even for water therapy.
> He stated that regardless of what the MRI would show - at this point, his treatment options would not change.
So he has a crystal ball? X-ray vision? He knows for sure there is no herniated disk? Wow! This guy could put all the imaging centers of the world out of business. Makes me wonder why they ever bothered to invent the MRI? That was sure a big waste of time, wasn't it? Just because they rely on them at Johns Hopkins and Stanford and the Mayo Clinic doesn't mean anything. I guess JHU and Stanford and Mayo should just get rid of their MRI machines and replace them with confident all-knowing chiropractors. Treatment for a disk would include rest and steroids, something your doctor is consistently ruling out.
> Basically, he stated that the damage has been done, and at this point, his condition is not going to get any worse by not crating (or continuing to take prednisone.
This may be right and this may be wrong, and your dog can't afford for you to be wrong. You don't get a second chance with this. If it was an FCE (spinal stroke) then yes, all the damage that was ever going to be done was done in the first 24 hours. If it is a disk problem (which is more common than FCE) more damage most certainly can be done. If the disk is damaged further, you can lose bladder control. You can lose this precious opportunity for the disk to heal. You can permanently lose this window of opportunity for your dog to recover! You can spend the rest of your dog's life explaining to him how sorry you are he can't walk because his case was MISMANAGED.
Frankly, I will feel badly if you go for an MRI and spend all that money and it turns out it was an FCE and the treatment he is getting is truly adequate and should be continued. But right now you're flying blind. You don't know what it is. I'd feel worse if it was a disk problem and I didn't encourage you to get it diagnosed and your dog got worse and possibly had to be put to sleep. You choose.
> I guess you can tell that I'm putting a lot of faith in this doctor!
FIFTY PERCENT OF ALL DOCTORS GRADUATED IN THE BOTTOM HALF OF THEIR CLASS.
> including water therapies. He thinking that Coty may benefit and probably will require therapy. Of course -the place is 45 minutes away!!
He has one thing right. Water therapy is helpful. My dog goes to water therapy, it is a 40-minute drive to get there, we go twice a week, and it is worth it. However, based on everything else he said, I'd find another place even for water therapy.
> He stated that regardless of what the MRI would show - at this point, his treatment options would not change.
So he has a crystal ball? X-ray vision? He knows for sure there is no herniated disk? Wow! This guy could put all the imaging centers of the world out of business. Makes me wonder why they ever bothered to invent the MRI? That was sure a big waste of time, wasn't it? Just because they rely on them at Johns Hopkins and Stanford and the Mayo Clinic doesn't mean anything. I guess JHU and Stanford and Mayo should just get rid of their MRI machines and replace them with confident all-knowing chiropractors. Treatment for a disk would include rest and steroids, something your doctor is consistently ruling out.
> Basically, he stated that the damage has been done, and at this point, his condition is not going to get any worse by not crating (or continuing to take prednisone.
This may be right and this may be wrong, and your dog can't afford for you to be wrong. You don't get a second chance with this. If it was an FCE (spinal stroke) then yes, all the damage that was ever going to be done was done in the first 24 hours. If it is a disk problem (which is more common than FCE) more damage most certainly can be done. If the disk is damaged further, you can lose bladder control. You can lose this precious opportunity for the disk to heal. You can permanently lose this window of opportunity for your dog to recover! You can spend the rest of your dog's life explaining to him how sorry you are he can't walk because his case was MISMANAGED.
Frankly, I will feel badly if you go for an MRI and spend all that money and it turns out it was an FCE and the treatment he is getting is truly adequate and should be continued. But right now you're flying blind. You don't know what it is. I'd feel worse if it was a disk problem and I didn't encourage you to get it diagnosed and your dog got worse and possibly had to be put to sleep. You choose.
> I guess you can tell that I'm putting a lot of faith in this doctor!
FIFTY PERCENT OF ALL DOCTORS GRADUATED IN THE BOTTOM HALF OF THEIR CLASS.
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Debbie
Re: F/U - Vet Visit
I will talk to others today. Don't forget - Coty was at another vet's office the first 4 days of this injury. That vet (and both these doctors are full fledged veternarians with full hospital practices) is the orginial vet who took the xrays and didn't recommend an MRI. I appreciate your concern - and will let you know what happens! Thanks!
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Miller's Mom
I agree with CarolC
I could not have said it better than Carol. What I am not understanding, and maybe I'm just slow, but if the vets were puzzled by the x-rays and the diagnosis was basically "problem with the hind legs" (duh) how can your vet say an MRI is not necessary, all the damage is done and the treatment options wouldn't change?
If you truly want to be Coty's best advocate, please get a second opinion from a neurologist. I overruled my vet when Miller went down and I'm glad I did. He wanted to crate rest and give him steroids. I went to a neurologist and got an MRI and Miller had two herniated discs and they did surgery that day. All the steroids in the world wasn't going to fix that.
Maybe these vets have control issues?
If you truly want to be Coty's best advocate, please get a second opinion from a neurologist. I overruled my vet when Miller went down and I'm glad I did. He wanted to crate rest and give him steroids. I went to a neurologist and got an MRI and Miller had two herniated discs and they did surgery that day. All the steroids in the world wasn't going to fix that.
Maybe these vets have control issues?
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Miller's Mom
One more thing....
As I mentioned in a previous post, 13 years ago I had a darling Cocker Spaniel (another rescue) named Daisy who just started acting like her back hurt her, but she could still walk. They took x-rays, couldn't see anything and I went along with the vet, wasted time and within a couple of days the discs exploded in her little spine. I rushed her to emergency (because these kinds of things ONLY happen after hours), and they did what they could for her pain over night. The next day the orhopod comes in and says it's too late because she's been down too long. I put her to sleep that day. My heart was broken and it still is to this day. But Daisy taught me an important lesson. Be proactive and downright aggravating and do not give a flying fig in rolling doughnut who you might offend to get your baby the care he needs to give him the best chance to recover. Miller benefitted greatly from my loss of Daisy so something good finally came of it.
18-wheeler with explosives overturned
I'm sorry, Debbie. I'm usually not so negative, and I wasn't upset with you but with the vet who guarantees no risk of further injury without objective proof to back it up. Yikes! Let me tell you about yesterday, and maybe you'll get a laugh about the complications of pet care.
Yesterday morning I was late to work because an 18-wheeler carrying explosive shape charges and flammable liquid overturned on the ramp to the Hazardous Materials detour near my neighborhood at 7:45.
When I got to work, 2 other people were late, one never made it at all and turned back after trying to get to work for 2 hours, and the manager called in w/a sick child leaving me in charge. A customer reported she had tried to go home and authorities would not let her re-enter her neighborhood due to mandatory evacuation within a half-mile radius, and the radio station website said closure and cleanup would last 16 hours. There I was with a dog at home w/o bladder control who has to be expressed every 8 hrs. I knew it would take extra time to go home at lunch because of all the traffic diverted off the expressway onto my normal route so I'd be late getting back, and I was afraid they'd block me out of my neighborhood too.
So I went home at lunch, got my dog, brought her back to work and put her crate in the meeting room where she proceeded to whine. I was afraid of getting reported for having the dog there, or of customer complaints. I turned the radio on for her and turned down the A/C so she'd crawl under her blanket and go to sleep. It was a very stressful day for her and me, and I'm still waiting to see if I get written up.
So by the time I read what your vet said, the one who took your dog off the steroids and says there is no risk of further injury, I just went bonkers. I think you have to live this to really appreciate what is at stake. Trying to do math without a calculator, it has been approx. 618 days since I brought my dog home from the hospital and began to express her 4x a day, so I've expressed her 2472 times. It isn't hard and to tell the truth I kind of enjoy it, but don't you think I'd like to have lunch on my lunch hour once in a while instead of going home to express? Don't you think I'd like to sleep 10 hours once in a while instead of getting up after 8 hours to express? When my father died, I took my dog with me driving across country and expressed her on the hood of the car at the gas station. When I was called for jury duty, I was late back to court after the luncheon recess because I had to drive home and express, and some judges will swear out a warrant for your arrest if you don't show!
It's better both for the dog and you if you can avoid loss of bladder control in your dog. If steroids and crate rest may help your dog heal, it seems like such an easy thing to do with so much at stake. Debbie, I sincerely wish the best for your dog and his family, and I don't know what's best for your dog. I only know what is normally done in these situations by vets across the country, and your current vet isn't doing it, and he took your dog off the steroids your first vet prescribed, and the steroids were the norm, and furthermore, you have to taper off steroids, not stop cold turkey, so yes, I am concerned. But I'm sorry I was so negative last night, you surely don't need that. I apologize for going ballistic (pun intended!) Hope you'll forgive me.
Yesterday morning I was late to work because an 18-wheeler carrying explosive shape charges and flammable liquid overturned on the ramp to the Hazardous Materials detour near my neighborhood at 7:45.
When I got to work, 2 other people were late, one never made it at all and turned back after trying to get to work for 2 hours, and the manager called in w/a sick child leaving me in charge. A customer reported she had tried to go home and authorities would not let her re-enter her neighborhood due to mandatory evacuation within a half-mile radius, and the radio station website said closure and cleanup would last 16 hours. There I was with a dog at home w/o bladder control who has to be expressed every 8 hrs. I knew it would take extra time to go home at lunch because of all the traffic diverted off the expressway onto my normal route so I'd be late getting back, and I was afraid they'd block me out of my neighborhood too.
So I went home at lunch, got my dog, brought her back to work and put her crate in the meeting room where she proceeded to whine. I was afraid of getting reported for having the dog there, or of customer complaints. I turned the radio on for her and turned down the A/C so she'd crawl under her blanket and go to sleep. It was a very stressful day for her and me, and I'm still waiting to see if I get written up.
So by the time I read what your vet said, the one who took your dog off the steroids and says there is no risk of further injury, I just went bonkers. I think you have to live this to really appreciate what is at stake. Trying to do math without a calculator, it has been approx. 618 days since I brought my dog home from the hospital and began to express her 4x a day, so I've expressed her 2472 times. It isn't hard and to tell the truth I kind of enjoy it, but don't you think I'd like to have lunch on my lunch hour once in a while instead of going home to express? Don't you think I'd like to sleep 10 hours once in a while instead of getting up after 8 hours to express? When my father died, I took my dog with me driving across country and expressed her on the hood of the car at the gas station. When I was called for jury duty, I was late back to court after the luncheon recess because I had to drive home and express, and some judges will swear out a warrant for your arrest if you don't show!
It's better both for the dog and you if you can avoid loss of bladder control in your dog. If steroids and crate rest may help your dog heal, it seems like such an easy thing to do with so much at stake. Debbie, I sincerely wish the best for your dog and his family, and I don't know what's best for your dog. I only know what is normally done in these situations by vets across the country, and your current vet isn't doing it, and he took your dog off the steroids your first vet prescribed, and the steroids were the norm, and furthermore, you have to taper off steroids, not stop cold turkey, so yes, I am concerned. But I'm sorry I was so negative last night, you surely don't need that. I apologize for going ballistic (pun intended!) Hope you'll forgive me.
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Miller's Mom
Re: 18-wheeler with explosives overturned
Yikes Carol! That it explains it. I've never read anything from you before that was point blank BLUNT! You're usually the poster girl for diplomacy and an encyclopedia of knowledge and experience to boot! It was all still true though.
I have come to the conclusion that when things like this happen to our animals we are forced to decide how far we are willing to go and how much we are willing to spend in time and money no matter what the outcome, good or bad. As we all know, some people just dispose of the pet when they become "broken" because they just don't want to deal with it.
I am hoping that in hindsight Debbie will not have to live with any regrets that she didn't do enough or more.
I have come to the conclusion that when things like this happen to our animals we are forced to decide how far we are willing to go and how much we are willing to spend in time and money no matter what the outcome, good or bad. As we all know, some people just dispose of the pet when they become "broken" because they just don't want to deal with it.
I am hoping that in hindsight Debbie will not have to live with any regrets that she didn't do enough or more.
I think Debbie is doing everything she can already
She's just getting so many opinions. Debbie, I'm realizing your whole week must have been like my one day. I'm sorry again for adding to it. And I never even said how encouraging it is that his one leg seems to be improving. That's super!