Never have read this, but it's worth a thought

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

Well, truth to tell, I could not list all that did not work.

I will add, though, that I ran out of L-T and in two days' time, her aggression was again severe and very serious.

Two days back on, and it is decreasing again, hugely.

AND CVS had a sale on L-T. Got it for almost half price.

She's in bad shape, overall, behaviourally. I don't trust her, and I correct every growl. With a snatch on the scruff of the neck and pushing her to the ground. She attacked Gabriel this morning, and I yelled at Ambrr to GET HER! Ambrr pinned her to ground.

I am so so so fed up with these attacks. Gabriel and Ambrr are as well. Don't know where this will end.

We are, btw, having terrible storms here in southern South Carolina today, and Ambrr who is intensely fearful during storms got two L-Ts in meatballs, and has even gone out to the porch. I recommend L-T for storm fear as well.

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

Asked Allexperts about beta blockers. I googled beta blockers and canine aggression and you would be AMAZED at what all pops up. Folks, this is an EXCELLENT RESOURCE! Beyond wonderful, a fresh, innovative look at a dog that our local deep south medical community is at a loss to deal with. Here in the deep south, we have to fight to keep a deafblind alive. This website came up when I googled beta blockers and canine aggression.

I cannot recommend this site highly enough. Personal, well-thought out response that I am VERY excited to research.
The answer I got is a totally new and GREAT behavioural modification exercise!So here's my query and the response:

http://www.allexperts.com/user.cgi?m=6& ... ID=4711983

aggression in severe CCD deafblind pup
Question She has FINALLY gotten Rx for chlomicalm for her CCD, which has given her huge relief. Treating her flooded colon, nothing working, a suggestion to feed low fat, low protein, her colon healed! However, aggressoin is off the charts. Is it possible that low protein is depriving her of essential amino acids for seratonin? I have since put her on L-tryptophan and B12, the OTCs of choice for serious aggression problems, and have seen a marked improvement, in that she doesn't spend waking hours growling and snarling. However she will still go into that zone and attack totally unprovoked.

Doc said essentially nothing about aggression, except that it is behavioural. We were lucky to get a renewal on her chlomicalm, nevermind any aggression drugs. We are on our own trying to help this little abused foster pup from Texas.

I really need help with her, we have overcome so much, she has come so far AND she gained 3 pounds between her March and April vet visits! This is HUGE! She was underweight, flinging food in a fury and spinning spinning spinning on a hip with fho from blunt force trauma. So this weight gaine is huge. She is deafblind so communicating with her is touch. When she aggresses, I grab by scruff and if it is an attack, she gets a pop on nose with fingers. When she attacks my other deafblind, my nanadog grabs her by scruff and pins her.

I really need help. Am reading right now about beta blockers in serious aggression cases. Any suggestions?

MANY THANKS!
Karen, Lethal White Aussie Rescue - Carolinas

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer I have in the past experimented (with a veterinary colleague) the use of propanolol in the treatment of aggression. Beta blockers truncate the adrenaline rush and, with behavior modification, they can work very well. Any related side effects (such as a drop in blood pressure, too slow heart rate, etc.) must be monitored carefully. However, given the condition this dog is in, it's well worth the risk. With such a terrible combination of problems, this dog is suffering enormous anxiety. Instead of using physical intimidation, you (as a human conspecific) should try using scent. Conditioned response can be built on anything. Associating a strong scent that you do not use in any other venue with a small food reward, in the classical conditioning exercise, gives you a way to reward the dog for her compliant, non aggressive behavior without compromising your trust bond by physical punishment. Try it.

QUESTION NUMBER TWO!

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: THANK YOU! Would you think it is behavioural? I had investigated whether CCD may trigger a psychomotor seizure?

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_se ... order.html


PSYCHOMOTOR SEIZURES
This type of seizure is predominantly behavioral with the animal involuntarily howling, snapping, circling, etc. The abnormal behavior may be followed by a generalized seizure.

Possum's CCD behaviour WAS just about a constant when she is moving at all, or moves from one spot to another, or one toy to another. Her aggression was a constant in these episodes. By simple interruption, we have decreased her spinning 50%. Cholicalm gave us another 25%. Her aggression went off charts until I started her on the LT and B12.
She attacked DeafBlindGabriel this morning, they slept snout to snout and she woke up and attacked him. I had bloodshed in the hallway this morning.

I cannot trust Possum at all with Gabriel. Gabriel will turn mean as a result of this constant battering and he is terrified of her. Even Ambrrnanadog will walk around the room to stay away from her.

Vet said it is behavioural, and not anything to do with misfirings or seizure behaviour in her brain. All that we have looked at is at http://www.handicappedpet.net/helppets/ ... 14&t=10816

Possum isn't treat motivated at all. In fact her aggression around food is so serious, she can't have a biscuit, because she won't eat it, but she will do her level best to kill anyone who comes near it. I firmly believe she had to fight for her life in Texas, judging by how far she has come with behaviour modificatoin, trust building & etc. But if it is behavioural, and maybe thinks the best defense is a good offense, should she learn that this very serious aggression is not allowed?

When she got here, she didn't know what people were, what a massage was (in fact, she would squirm away) and never ever cuddled. Now she seeks out cuddles and sleeps with either my cousin or me. It is so beautiful to see how far she has come, but this aggression issue may be the nail in her coffin.

She is so delightful and gets cuddles, play, massage, tickles and play ALL the time she is not aggressing. She loves it. When she's in the red zone, though, my cousin has pet her or touched her to reconnect her with the world. To my mind, that is reward for this behaviour. So, I will start like this, if I read you correctly (and if I don't, please please correct me!)
We will start by scenting an object and start massage and/or play immediately thereafter. So then when she associates the smell with good things, we keep that rag or sponge soaked with scent handy to wave under her nose, and when she reconnects we reward with play and silliness? She does love silliness.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I have worked too hard with this little girl to give up without seeking ALL answers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer I normally consider circling and other OC behaviors seizure related, but in the case of this dog with her multiple deficiencies, it's anyone's guess. Medicating for seizure disorder is not always successful and this dog has a plateful already. The side effect of phenobarbital is sedation and often reduced cognition. Life isn't just about breathing; it's about quality. There are times one has to make a humane choice (would that it were possible for humans to make these choices for themselves.) Before adding yet one more behaviorally challenging medication to treat seizure disorder, I would at least (given your dedication) have a CSF (spinal tap) and an MRI of this dog. This is extremely expensive and extremely stressful to the dog (not to mention travel to a teaching veterinary hospital.) For discussion of epilepsy in dogs and related medications, go to http://www,canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/other meds.html.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: THANK YOU! Would you think it is behavioural? I had investigated whether CCD may trigger a psychomotor seizure?

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_se ... order.html


PSYCHOMOTOR SEIZURES
This type of seizure is predominantly behavioral with the animal involuntarily howling, snapping, circling, etc. The abnormal behavior may be followed by a generalized seizure.

Possum's CCD behaviour WAS just about a constant when she is moving at all, or moves from one spot to another, or one toy to another. Her aggression was a constant in these episodes. By simple interruption, we have decreased her spinning 50%. Cholicalm gave us another 25%. Her aggression went off charts until I started her on the LT and B12.
She attacked DeafBlindGabriel this morning, they slept snout to snout and she woke up and attacked him. I had bloodshed in the hallway this morning.

I cannot trust Possum at all with Gabriel. Gabriel will turn mean as a result of this constant battering and he is terrified of her. Even Ambrrnanadog will walk around the room to stay away from her.

Vet said it is behavioural, and not anything to do with misfirings or seizure behaviour in her brain. All that we have looked at is at http://www.handicappedpet.net/helppets/ ... 14&t=10816

Possum isn't treat motivated at all. In fact her aggression around food is so serious, she can't have a biscuit, because she won't eat it, but she will do her level best to kill anyone who comes near it. I firmly believe she had to fight for her life in Texas, judging by how far she has come with behaviour modificatoin, trust building & etc. But if it is behavioural, and maybe thinks the best defense is a good offense, should she learn that this very serious aggression is not allowed?

When she got here, she didn't know what people were, what a massage was (in fact, she would squirm away) and never ever cuddled. Now she seeks out cuddles and sleeps with either my cousin or me. It is so beautiful to see how far she has come, but this aggression issue may be the nail in her coffin.

She is so delightful and gets cuddles, play, massage, tickles and play ALL the time she is not aggressing. She loves it. When she's in the red zone, though, my cousin has pet her or touched her to reconnect her with the world. To my mind, that is reward for this behaviour. So, I will start like this, if I read you correctly (and if I don't, please please correct me!)
We will start by scenting an object and start massage and/or play immediately thereafter. So then when she associates the smell with good things, we keep that rag or sponge soaked with scent handy to wave under her nose, and when she reconnects we reward with play and silliness? She does love silliness.

THANK YOU SO MUCH! I have worked too hard with this little girl to give up without seeking ALL answers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer I normally consider circling and other OC behaviors seizure related, but in the case of this dog with her multiple deficiencies, it's anyone's guess. Medicating for seizure disorder is not always successful and this dog has a plateful already. The side effect of phenobarbital is sedation and often reduced cognition. Life isn't just about breathing; it's about quality. There are times one has to make a humane choice (would that it were possible for humans to make these choices for themselves.) Before adding yet one more behaviorally challenging medication to treat seizure disorder, I would at least (given your dedication) have a CSF (spinal tap) and an MRI of this dog. This is extremely expensive and extremely stressful to the dog (not to mention travel to a teaching veterinary hospital.) For discussion of epilepsy in dogs and related medications, go to http://www,canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/other meds.html.


And now, dang it, she's full up. Will try later.

We have researched the canine epilepsy so often, I have it on my harddrive.

However, her link for other meds is well worth the read!

Going to link Jean to this topic & thread.

[critters]

Interesting thought. I used to not know much about Beta blockers beyond that they are good for glaucoma and lousy for asthma, but, you know, they've started using them for humans with situational anxieties and the like. For instance, somebody who HAS to give a speech but is terrified of public performance. SO...all this that you found out makes sense.

[CarolC]

Dianne, I swear it was you who suggested low fat low protein for her explosive colon. After two rounds of endosorb and antibiotics, months of rice, turkey & etc., we went on the low fat low protein diet. SHE WAS CURED! Doc was talking IBD which would have been her death sentence. I keep telling them, SHE WAS CURED by low fat and low protein! They are not impressed I found the answer myself, and it was so impossibly simple. In the meantime, however, cutting back on her protein, I feel POSITIVE has cut back on her essential amino acids, and may indeed be teh cause her increased aggression, and backsliding.

I heard an interview on the Diane Rehm show with Dr. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts University, author of The Well-Adjusted Dog. He recommended a "bare maintnenance" level of protein for aggression, specifically 18% protein. He also recommended exercising the dog.

http://wamu.org/programs/dr/08/07/15.php#21081

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

No kidding! Essential amino acids promote seratonin production. Essential aminos are found in protein!

Well, we have increased her protein a bit to 19-21% to assist the L-Tryptophan.

Their protein remarks kind of fly in the face of what we've practiced these last several months. I'd be more than happy to talk to anyone who has ideas about this, because it is serious, and with my cousin up north, Possum is back to being locked in the bathroom while I am at work. The attacks come from nowhere and are dangerous.

Possum gets so much exercise that she came here skin and bones. Constant spinning and explosive bowels and vomitting keeps that model type figure.

[SandyNY]

someone else mentioned this to Jean; and I have a friend who had one of her dogs with one - there is a certain type of muzzle you can get that the dog can drink and even eat with it on but not bite.
I think you already tried some sort of anxiety wrap with possum... have you tried crate? seems as tho some dogs actually calm with the confinement. i guess we have to think of it as a den. is the bathroom big enough to put a large crate in? with the door removed so she can determine if she likes it inside it? i am thinking maybe try go along with the "den" idea and cover the crate so no holes on back / sides.

[SandyNY]

lite reading for your spare time;;;
http://www.mirage-samoyeds.com/healthli ... m#epilepsy

it is a L-O-N-G list of articles!!!!!

[SandyNY]

http://www.superdog.com/
this teaching technique trainers offer lifetime followup s---- no offense, but maybe your guys could give them a run for thier money!!
the first pic on the homepage has a tripod in the pic.

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

There is really no way to explain Possum, except to say if you saw her and were unaware you would either be horrified or you would laugh. A neighbor stopped by a few months ago, laughing at her spinning. I said this is so far from funny. She said she's amusing herself, I said no, she is going insane.

Connections with Possum seem to be worsening. Her aggression is coming back a little bit more each day and her disconnects more often than her connects.

You know how a dog wiggles with delight when you come home, when they greet you? Gabriel who is deaf and blind will flat climb up your body to welcome you.

Possum spins, because something different has occured. She does connect, but not often. It is magical when she does, but I get sick to my stomach watching what could have been a loving, beautiful little lady growling, snarling, spinning, relentlessly.

There is no cure, there is no hope for anything better than what she has. I know more than anyone and I have hit that brick wall.

She will continue to exist until the deterioration increases. And I guess, so will I.

Oh, and yes, the anxiety wrap is a tightfitting vest, and as it cost over $70, I bought Possum several tight fitting tees from the thrift stores. The baby tank tops fit the best and look adorable. No help though

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

That Samoyed site is excellent! I am going to bookmark it.

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

We upped her Rx, in conjunction with the LT and B12, which gave us amazing results.
For a while.
Everything is deteriorating. She has disconnected. Had a WONDERFUL 7 minutes today! BEAUTIFUL, WONDERFUL, PLAYED INTENSELY for 7 minutes.
Vet visit Sat.
Neuro? Shrug shoulders, don't know.
Leg atrophy? Yes, some. Does it hurt? Don't know.
Vet belives Behavioural. Have to go to board certified veterinarian trained closest Athens. Out of the question, financially and time wise. She says Possum's CCD may be her 'job'. No, it's not behavioural, may have been 2 years ago, but she is flat hard-wired now.
Spoke to Gary Winters (Who if you google him, you will see he has had TWO major hospitals in FL & CA and wrote an American book like James Herriott's, on his first years as a vet. Amazoned it, out of print. Allibris'd it, cannot locate.
He said we NEED to be in a huge city with huge resources.
Possum's immediate future is not looking good at all. I could just vomit.

[kodiblue]

Karen, Possum is not happy and you and your whole family live in fear. Constant fear will shorten everyones lives. Do you think she is suffering? I know this is not even close to what you are dealing with, but I made the best choice for my Kodi even though my heart was screaming "MURDERER". I loved him more than anything and I watched him drag himself around after me in such obvious pain. He didn't deserve to hurt so much. So I took all the hurt onto myself and let him go. Every moment in heaven is a shining one. I feel so badly for you, you have my prayers. Lisa P.S. It's not just the deep south, I'm in the midwest transplanted from seattle and I can't believe the ignorance.

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

This is EXACTLY what I am feeling. She enjoys going to the vet. She's always on her best behaviour. How can I in good conscience put down a pup who is 'healthy' (kind of)?

I made the best choice for my Kodi even though my heart was screaming "MURDERER". I loved him more than anything and I watched him drag himself around after me in such obvious pain. He didn't deserve to hurt so much. So I took all the hurt onto myself and let him go. Every moment in heaven is a shining one.

I cry just reading your message, because I too will be screaming the same thing.

Thank you for putting such a fine finger on the issue.

[kodiblue]

Everyone has to make the decision that's right for them. I will carry guilt as long as I live. We just moved to a home with a 1 acre fenced yard and my first thought was, Kodi would love it here.. Kodi loved the vet too, he was there so often and he knew they made him feel better. When he realised the last time he was leaving me, he fought it. In my ignorance, I hadn't requested a tranquilizer, and to share the blame, I wasn't offered one. GUILTY!!! I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Now I have 5 rescues one with CH and Epilepsy, and will be fostering another today. I think I wanted it to make me feel better, it doesn't. BUT, I have never come up with anything I could have done differently that would make it better for him. He is better off and I will see him again. He is not suffering anymore. That's why I asked if she is suffering, go from there. She is beautiful and I pray you find an answer you can both live with.

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

Well, I made an appointment for last Saturday to have Possum euthanized, put to sleep, destroyed.

I had taken her off of all meds the week before, figuring why bother fighting with these pills and spending the $$ any more.

She has really improved off all meds, despite the fact she attacked Gabriel today. She bought herself a little more time.

I am sick about everything. No one should be on this roller coaster ride.

And the $$ I spent at vet at beginning of August to get the recommendation to talk to a pet psychic was the telling point.

No one can help this little girl.