Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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ksrescues
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Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

Post by ksrescues »

Hello I'm new here! I have been researching everywhere I can for information on poor circulation in IVDD cases, especially in kitties. Unfortunately kitty information is scarce, it seems, since most IVDD cases tend to be in dogs.
I have had a good look through your lovely boards and have seen so many of you have a vast amount of knowledge and experiences in these matters, so wanted to see if anyone out there might be able to give me some advice or information.

First: a word of Phoenix. Phoenix is my "wonder kitty". Shelters in our area have a nearly 100% kill rate of cats, and whenever possible I like to rescue kitties from our area and try to find them new homes. Phoenix was brought to me as a starving orphan in need of bottle feeding, skeletally thin and desperately ill. He has asthma, and has pulled through more diseases and problems than the majority of the animals I have rescued over the past 6 years combined. I've been told by the vet multiple times that Phoenix would not live the night, yet here Phoenix still is, defying the odds.
Image
Needless to say, after all of the uphill battles with Phoenix, he adopted me and he's never had to search for a new home :lol:

My little Phoenix has recently developed a case of IVDD-in which the vet at first told me Phoenix would quite probably be permanently paralyzed, even with surgery, since Phoenix had developed paralysis and was unable to feel deep pain from approximately the hips down. Long story short: he gave me the typical line, you have two choices an outrageously expensive surgery that probably won't do any good, or euthanasia. (Let me pause here to say that our area is such a small back-woods place that we don't even have any veterinarians to do this surgery, so Phoenix would have to go to a University Hospital (teaching school) in the next state for the surgery.) He gave Phoenix a steroid injection to at least start the process of decreasing the swelling of the disk, and warned me that the surgery needed to be performed ASAP, but allowed me a 24-hour period to think over my decision. I was SO ready to spring for the surgery, but after hearing all of the special attention and care Phoenix would need if he was permanently paralyzed, I was unsure if I was able to provide him that care alone, and still maintain my livelihood, and I can tell you I cried most of that 24-hour period thinking I was going to lose my little one, who had bounced back from so many problems before. By the next morning Phoenix had taken that decision from me-he was definitely attempting to move his legs, hovering one little foot off the bedding for seconds at a time-and he definitely had bowel and bladder control-if he was gonna try, so was I!
In the last 5 days (has it ONLY been that long?) he's moving his legs again (clumsily, but they do kick) and the feeling is returning (he complains when you touch or massage them) and his tail is on a near "permanent twitch" mode. The vet thinks Phoenix might have a chance of recover without surgery, so I've been very, very excited to say the least :D
However, over the last few days his beautiful little pads have gone from a pretty light pink color, to a steadily deepening purple. The vet assures me this is normal, but I am concerned. I have been massaging and doing gentle "physical therapy" exercises (such as gentle "bicycle" movements that keep the spine still, while exercising the legs, bending little joints of toes, legs, etc). I have tried alternating hot and cold packs, have even tried a few hours of "compression therapy" by wrapping his little legs in ace bandages, snugly but not too tightly, but his toes are staying that deep dark angry purple-red color, and the pads are becoming stiff and hard. The compression therapy did help his upper legs tremendously-I noticed them returning to normal color, where they had been darker before. Phoenix has predominantly white fur, with lilac-colored skin, normally-so color-checking is rather easy, luckily! As his normally pink toes have turned purple, the skin under his fur has turned a deeper purple color too, which also says to me that he's having a lack of blood flow up and down the entire hind legs.
Is this a normal case, or is it, as I fear more severe? My vet has said one of the treatments for this is electroacupuncture, which is uncomfortable in ANYONE, but kitties in particular aren't fond of it, so he wishes to wait a few more days before trying it. I'm afraid the circulation has been damaged very badly inside of him, or is too very poor to wait that long. On top of his asthma, I'm not sure he's getting the proper amount of oxygen to those limbs that he is trying so desperately to move again. Should I be worried? I am going to mention his poor circulation to the vet again tomorrow about the issue, but any advice in the meantime is VERY much appreciated :thankyou: Should I go ahead and push for the electroacupuncture to be on the safe side? Is there anything more I can do at home? Or am I being an obsessive worrier again :oops:

Kimiko&Phoenix
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CarolC
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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ksrescues wrote:However, over the last few days his beautiful little pads have gone from a pretty light pink color, to a steadily deepening purple. The vet assures me this is normal, but I am concerned.
I am absolutely not a vet and not in the medical field. The pads going purple is not a symptom I have ever heard associated with IVDD. There is another condition in a cat that can cause rear end paralysis and loss of circulation. That is saddle thrombus. The cat throws a clot that lodges in the place where the main blood supply splits going to each leg, and blocks off the circulation. I think you need to rule this out ASAP. I think you need to get your cat to a more advanced veterinary hospital. I think you urgently need a second opinion on what you have been told. If it means a drive to another city, I think it would be worth it for peace of mind. If it turns out it was a clot and they can treat it, the next thing to do would be to have his heart examined to see why he threw a clot. Sometimes breathing problems go with heart problems. Again, I am not a vet, but I think you need a second opinion from a well trained and experienced vet.
ksrescues
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

Post by ksrescues »

I have been researching this condition as well, and am wondering about it as IVDD and Thromboembolism/Thrombus can present with similar symptoms. I will definitely bring the possibility up with our vet when I talk to him tomorrow (well actually a little later this morning :wink: )
I definitely want to have Phoenix tested for a clot, but he did present with nerve damage as the first few days he was completely unable to feel even deep pain when tested in hind limbs or tale, which does point towards IVDD, as in Thromboembolism/Thrombus cases cats are uncomfortable and in pain and Phoenix literally felt nothing below the hips.
Unfortunately, I will have to go through my vet to be in contact with a more advanced clinic, hospital or specialist. As it is, I already DO make that drive to another town-a 45 minute trip one direction to visit the vet Phoenix and I are seeing (we have only 1 vet in our town-which I refuse to visit, as he kills more animals than he saves, so I pack my animals up to visit the next "nearest" vet.) The nearest clinic that deals with more serious matters is the teaching Universities in the next state-the closest of which is a 3-hour drive from my location in one direction, and I am unsure how to go about contacting them for them to look at Phoenix, as I have not done so to date. (I can find their info to sign up for classes, but have NO CLUE about scheduling an appointment for an animal :oops: )
:thankyou: so much for your help, I will be sure to request more thorough testing for a clot, and see what can be arranged for Phoenix as soon as the office opens in approximately 8 hours :thankyou:
ksrescues
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

Post by ksrescues »

Hmm, I also wonder if it's possible he developed the clot after developing IVDD, since his feet did not start to change color until several days after he was paralyzed :?:
Something else interesting I plan to ask my vet I suppose.
:thankyou: again! I'm definitely going to pursue this to see if we can figure out what's going on with the poor circulation in Phoenix's hind legs
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CarolC
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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ksrescues wrote:I definitely want to have Phoenix tested for a clot, but he did present with nerve damage as the first few days he was completely unable to feel even deep pain when tested in hind limbs or tale, which does point towards IVDD, as in Thromboembolism/Thrombus cases cats are uncomfortable and in pain and Phoenix literally felt nothing below the hips.
I'll be waiting to hear how it goes. Here are some more links:
http://manhattancats.com/Articles/Arterial_Thromboembolism.html in Arterial Thromboembolism (ATE) wrote:
Cats are literally normal one second, and paralyzed in the next second.

http://www.embracepetinsurance.com/blog/saddle-thrombus-in-cats in Saddle Thrombus in cats wrote:
The main symptom is weakness or paralysis of the hind legs, which will be colder than other parts of the body and may even be bluish in color.
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critters
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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I have/have had 4 SCI boys, from a variety of causes, and NONE have had purple toes. I couldn't agree more that it's probably a clot somewhere, or, yes, some other cause of poor circulation. I'm concerned from here! :shock:
ksrescues
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

Post by ksrescues »

:thankyou: Just back from the vet-here's the news.
Phoenix is presenting with red and purple today on his hind legs/toes. The vet has told me this is actually a better sign because it looks like the blood-flow is returning :?
Unfortunately, he confirmed what I already knew-the vets in our area and surrounding areas are like family physicians, good for routine procedures and checkups, however no local vet has access to or owns MRI, EKG, or other heart monitoring machines or in-depth expensive machinery like it. (However, most vets, like the one I go to DO have access to, or own X-ray machines, to be able to check for broken bones, slipped disk, etc.)
Animals must be sent to teaching schools (Universities) in the states surrounding us for more in-depth testing. He wants me to start immediate water therapy on Phoenix, which he says should help encourage the blood-flow, and should also help with his returning movement in his legs and tail. He was looking into some other methods to help encourage blood-flow as well. He has sent us home while he will be calling around to the Universities and other vets surrounding his office to see if anyone can offer any further medical assistance or technical (in the form of the machinery) to be sure Phoenix does not have a clot. He already cautioned me though, that it may be difficult to get any aid from other vets and to get animals in to the Universities from our area, since we are such a small community either nobody has the means to help out, or they just don't care about us "boonie" people. He says he's essentially been told by others that "it's not worth the trouble" and to "just euthanize the animal" in cases where he's reached out to other vets and the Universities before :twisted: (I actually know this reaction first hand, as I have tried reaching out to organizations to help us with our rescue efforts and strays and have been told by everybody under the sun (HSUS, ASPCA included) that they don't "service our area" and it would be best to just "round them up and mass euthanize" :twisted: :twisted: I throw that bit in there to just say that, yes I do believe him when he tells me that's the response he gets.)
He does seem relatively certain that there isn't a clot present, however. He also has given Phoenix an antibiotic injection to help prevent bed sores as Phoenix is now chewing at his feet. The vet tells me this is because the sensation is returning and that tingling feeling you get when your arm/leg falls asleep is driving him crazy (which I had read this information on this board, so pretty much thought that's what was going on there). I asked for a cone of shame for the poor fellow to be sure to help keep him from chewing or causing more damage.
I'm not certain what else can be done, I refuse to let ANYONE euthanize him, and don't have many other options concerning choices of clinics. (Again I REFUSE to visit the local vet-he has killed more animals than cured, and he always pushes the euthanasia (from personal experience), so I know what his first response is going to be on seeing Phoenix, I also know from previous visits that his office does not have the more delicate machinery either.)
I'll keep everyone updated as more information becomes available. My vet is supposed to give me a call if he can find anyone with the machinery necessary or other medical advice to help Phoenix out. :thankyou:
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critters
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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That sounds MUCH better, and, yes, hydrotherapy should help. If you think like he's feeling zaps or something gabapentin is THE thing for that, and it does wonders. My baby boy is taking it now, and my Buddy was one of the first critters to take it ages ago.
ksrescues
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

Post by ksrescues »

critters wrote:That sounds MUCH better, and, yes, hydrotherapy should help. If you think like he's feeling zaps or something gabapentin is THE thing for that, and it does wonders. My baby boy is taking it now, and my Buddy was one of the first critters to take it ages ago.
Thank you SO very much for pointing me towards gabapentin :wub: I've written it down in case Phoenix continues to chew his legs, or show signs that the pain/tingling isn't fading :thankyou:
Phoenix and I have just finished out first water therapy session-which he hated :lol: -I am researching methods to make it easier on cats-but most cats aren't too happy about water-so I'm not sure how that's going to work :oops: Though I suppose over time he'll get used to having it done-I don't think he'll ever enjoy it :lol:
I did notice immediately that after his water session (besides exhausting him) his legs DID feel a little warmer, and I was so happy to see the skin reacting to the water by "pinking up" (ok, in Phoenix's case turning a lighter lilac in the skin region since he has naturally lilac-colored skin, and more reddish in the toes). He lasted I'd say less than 10-15 minutes, but for a first session, not so bad!
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critters
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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Unless it's a cat that naturally likes water, I think the best that you can hope for is tolerance of the bath/hydrotherapy without bloodshed on either part. :twisted: Frankly, I'm happy with that; they don't have to like it!! The hydrotherapy sounds like he did great!
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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How is he doing...?
ksrescues
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

Post by ksrescues »

Please forgive me everyone for not getting in to reply, I had to make the terrible choice of euthanasia with Phoenix. Shortened version: Phoenix's legs had gotten significantly worse over past week. First vet was unable to get us in at the teaching school for an MRI or EKG to test for blood clot. We ended up needing to visit with a second vet when the first vet was out of town (I was actually terrified to do this, because second vet has a reputation for killing animals under anesthesia :shock: )
2nd vet didn't even think Phoenix would make trip to teaching school even if they could get us in, as his blood pressure had already dropped, temperature had dropped, heart rate etc. 2nd vet was afraid they couldn't get him stabilized for the 3-hour trip, but left the choice up to us. I made a judgement call that I'll probably regret for the rest of my life, but I would much rather have had Phoenix die comfortably in my arms, than fearfully, surrounded by strangers, not knowing why I sent him away.
Thank you for your help and support, I would trade my very life to have changed this situation :cry:
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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I am so sorry. When I read about saddle thrombus, if that's what it was (unknown), the average survival rates are not encouraging. Apparently the cats with saddle thrombus who have heart disease survive only an average of a little over 2 months, and even cats who do not have heart disease only survive about an average of 7-8 months.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=189&A=3351&S=0 wrote: The median survival time of cats that did not present in heart failure was 223 days.
The median survival time of cats that did present in heart failure was 77 days.


It does seem like there is a phenomenon where we become closest to the pets that need us most, and special needs pets become closest to us. So when you lose a special needs or disabled pet, you have lost a pet that is close to you in ways other pets will never be. The same disabilities that make us closer to our pets, may also take our pets from us early. You did not have a lot of time, but you had a closer relationship during the time you had together.

I am very sorry for your loss.
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critters
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Re: Poor circulation, purple toes, IVDD in cat?

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Aw, I'm sorry for your loss. :cry:
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