Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

Neurological Disorders Resources. Treatment and care for pets having pain or trouble walking or standing due to spinal injuries or neurological disorders like IVDD, FCE and DM.
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CarolC
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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kandykane wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:03 am I wouldn't be here if I did I think to myself
Exactly! :wink:

I am sorry but I just realized I missed something earlier, and it could be important. I went back and re-read your first post from 2 days ago and saw the one vet prescribed carprofen and the other vet prescribed prednisone. Carprofen (aka Rimadyl) and prednisone cannot be used together because it increases the risk of GI problems. They recommend a one-week washout period between ending one and beginning the other, to be sure it is all out of the system. I don't know if the vet didn't read his record to see he had just been prescribed carprofen by the other vet, or if he told you to discontinue the carprofen and wasn't worried because it was only one day of using it (if so I wouldn't be worried). But in case your dog is still on both meds, that is not recommended.
https://www.zoetisus.com/contact/pages/product_information/rimadyl.aspx wrote: CAN RIMADYL BE GIVEN WITH OTHER MEDICINES?
RIMADYL should not be given with other NSAIDs (for example, aspirin, etodolac) or steroids (for example, cortisone, prednisone, dexamethasone, triamcinolone). Tell your veterinarian about all medicines you have given your dog in the past, and any medicines that you are planning to give with RIMADYL. This should include other medicines that you can get without a prescription. Your veterinarian may want to check that all of your dog’s medicines can be given together.
https://www.marvistavet.com/carprofen.pml wrote: Carprofen
INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER DRUGS
Multiple drugs of the NSAID class should not be used concurrently as the potential for the aforementioned side effects increases. For similar reasons, NSAIDS should not be used in conjunction with corticosteroid hormones such as prednisone, dexamethasone etc. Pfizer recommends a 5-7 day rest period when changing over to carprofen or to another NSAID from carprofen.
https://www.marvistavet.com/prednisone.pml wrote: Prednisone
INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER DRUGS
Glucocorticoid hormones should not be used in combination with medications of the NSAID class (ie aspirin, carprofen, deracoxib etc.) as the combination of these medications could lead to bleeding in the stomach or intestine. Ulceration could occur.
http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/IVDDcourse/conservative_treatment.html wrote: Caution: Steroids and NSAIDs must not be given together or one after the other without a safe washout period of 4-7 days.

If your dog is on both carprofen and prednisone right now, I would not give him any more carprofen until you ask the vet, preferably not the vet that prescribed the prednisone because it looks like he's the one that missed it or wasn't practicing safe use of the meds. I wonder if that is part of the problem with his soft stools.
kandykane
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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So than what is the use of x rays
I was prescribed Gabapentin 1 time from my Dr. I didn't like the feeling it gave me like I was
a spaced out don't know how to describe it, but will ask the Vet Friday, maybe it is different in dogs

I stopped given Skipper the Carprofen I don't want to many drugs in his body to give him other problems, he has enough with not being able to use his back legs, sorry almost cry every time I say that or write it
I think he is getting adjusted to being confined more, I put music on today unchained melody (Orchestra version) still playing seems to have a calming effect it is a good song and version though
and he has his fan, he has always been a fan dog, but it has to be his fan no other fan it's not loud and slow speed also the right height I think

gets his daily neck massages, yes I would Love one myself too, only seen a few spasms today but then I let him lay there by himself to get used to being confined more and really no licking his manly part today ( I call it his ding dong, so if I type that you know what I am talking about ) thinking he was thinking got to do something but I don't know
I still thank you for your help, is keeping me sane some what
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CarolC
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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Dianne used music therapy with her doxie, Schnitzel, too. That's cute about how he has his own fan. :) I have a Yorkie mix that seems to settle better with something blowing on her, too, which always seems strange to me because I don't like something blowing right on me but I guess dogs are different. Maybe it's the air, maybe it's the hum, I don't know. I talk to my pets too, we all understand each other well enough. I am glad you had already quit the carprofen. Two more days till Friday. I am really hoping you get a good vet this time. At least they have a better attitude about x-rays.

The reason x-rays can be useful is, a disk is a soft pillow between 2 boney vertebrae. If they do an x-ray and see the spacing between 2 vertebrae looks too small, they can assume something has happened to that disk in between, it is pancaked or bulging or ruptured or something. But x-rays will not show exactly what happened to it. If you think of a disk as round-ish, and your dog jumps off the porch or something and injures that disk so it is kind of squashed and maybe protruding out in one direction, really the bulge could be in any direction. When it bulges in toward the spinal cord, that is when you get more pain and neurological signs. I am not a vet and what I am going to say may be wrong, but as a layman I might *guess* that his disk is bulging more on the right side (?) because you are seeing more symptoms in the right leg, but I totally do not know. That is something that could be determined by advanced imaging, if they decide to do it. One factor in the decision on whether to do imaging is, some vets will not do advanced imaging unless you are planning to do surgery right after, if a disk problem is confirmed. In other words, they may not want to do an MRI/whatever just to get a better idea of what is going on. But there are other ways they can determine the level of the injury, using neurological testing in the office. If you scroll down quite a ways on this article, it shows pictures of some neurological testing that can be done right in the office without machinery.

:arrow: https://www.lbah.com/canine/disk-disease-ivd/

So...if they do an MRI, CT or myelogram, they can actually see the disk, and where it is bulging. The thing is, those tests are quite expensive. And in some places veterinary MRI may not even be available, it depends on where you live. I think a myelogram is available most places but I'm not sure. The myelogram used to be the gold standard before MRI was available, and it costs less than the MRI, but it is invasive and you would want to discuss the risks with the vet. My dog's surgeon said bassets are a breed more likely to have problems from a myelogram, so you might want to consider one of the other forms of imaging. I won't be surprised if the new vet just does an office exam, so you avoid the sedation and expense and any possible risk. (Again, I am not a vet, giving you my best understanding based on experience only.)
kandykane
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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Friday is taking way to long to get here
But Skipper for the most part is getting used to being grounded, but still get that look and it hurts but I tell em got to get you back walking, I get a sigh like I know

Thanks for straightening me out about x rays guess I am probably more frustrated then Skipper is even though I know that no matter what we will get through this together

There is so much good reading on this site and your helping me along I don't feel so lost and confused

The other vet said he would send the x rays over there tomorrow, going to give them a call in the afternoon to make sure they did and call Country Critters to verify if they say yes they did and if not I will be in his office getting them
I don't like this feeling of not trusting people, cause I do trust people, guess cause I'm worried about my Skipper and got the wrong diagnosis and no info if what and what not to do
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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You are just being an advocate for your dog. I do not think we ever need to apologize for that.

I was wondering, when you take him outside do you have to go up and down stairs or is it level?
kandykane
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

Post by kandykane »

Thank You
I made a ramp did have 4 stairs
at first he was hesitant cause it was new to him
now no problem I do let him pee and poop and we will sit on a blanket for a bit out side
cause he still needs the sunshine and fresh air no we do not walk far
it's pee poop blanket right near by lay for a bit while I pick up poop, back in ,
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CarolC
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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You read my mind. :D I was lucky we just have one step here. We had 3 when my first dog went down from old age, and when we moved I specially looked for a house without steps to the back yard for him. But I was wondering what it was like at your sister's house. It's not real easy to make a ramp for that many steps, glad you figured something out.

Here was something I did with my golden retriever, Merlin, when he started having problems. I took the back seat out of the car so I could park it next to the curb and he could more or less walk right in (with the help of a rear harness). If I parked in the driveway, he still had to step up about 14" to get his front feet on the floor of the car, then I had to help his rear. When I parked next to the curb, the car tires were sitting down in the gutter and the floor of the car was more nearly level with the grass. Before I removed the back seat I was having to boost him clear up onto the back seat and he was 63 lbs and I can't lift.

https://www.handicappedpets.com/mediawiki/?title=Automobile_conversion_for_a_disabled_dog

Something else I did with my dog was ask for help when I could. If we were going to the vet, I would put my dog in the car at home, and I would help him out when we returned home. But when we went to the vet (him being 63 lbs) I would leave him in the car and go in and ask if some of their strong young staff could come help him out of the car, or help me get him out of the car, and also load him in later. In a way it was safer for him, too, being handled by someone stronger. I just knew if I messed up my back there would be no one to care for him because I live alone with pets. If you are doing OK with putting your dog in the car and getting him out, that's great, because nobody will be more careful with him than you. If you are like me and have back (or neck or shoulder) problems, it is something to think about. At the specialty vet they would actually bring a gurney out to put Merlin on and roll him in.

Here's a video, sort of the same idea about taking advantage of geography to load a heavy dog in the car. Interesting what people come up with. :smart:

kandykane
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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Ha, it was no easy project building the ramp, sure glad my Dad taught me how to use tools and all growing up

Like the idea of taking the back seat out Thank You, I do have a bad back and neck don't know how I am doing this guess it's Love and my Sister can get outside easier also

I did call the vet and Skippers x rays are there, he didn't have time to give them a look over but said he would before we got there and he asked if I would need help with Skipper, I said yes please if you don't mind, he said just call when you are in the parking lot and will have somebody come out, so far I like this place and haven't even met them

I am not 1 to ask for help either but now I will not refuse help, already told Skipper he is going for a ride to see a new Vet tomorrow afternoon, got a smile and kiss, but miss his tail wagging
Praying for a good day tomorrow and got all my records and notes ready
Like that video too, guess when it comes to our babies we will do anything for them
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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At my sister's house I use the "ditch method" to load her lawn mower into my truck, but not at home--I'd probably sink up to the axles--again!
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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kandykane wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:00 pm Ha, it was no easy project building the ramp, sure glad my Dad taught me how to use tools and all growing up I'm impressed!! I've been pricing "instant" ramps at Amazon for a human client, and they're not necessarily as expensive as I thought, which might be a good option for people who don't have your skills. :D

Like the idea of taking the back seat out Thank You, I do have a bad back and neck don't know how I am doing this guess it's Love and my Sister can get outside easier also

I did call the vet and Skippers x rays are there, he didn't have time to give them a look over but said he would before we got there and he asked if I would need help with Skipper, I said yes please if you don't mind, he said just call when you are in the parking lot and will have somebody come out, so far I like this place and haven't even met them Great! That sounds promising already.

I am not 1 to ask for help either but now I will not refuse help, already told Skipper he is going for a ride to see a new Vet tomorrow afternoon, got a smile and kiss, but miss his tail wagging
Praying for a good day tomorrow and got all my records and notes ready
Like that video too, guess when it comes to our babies we will do anything for them
kandykane
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

Post by kandykane »

Sorry for the late post
what a day - like this vet so far and his assistants
still trying to absorb it all -so will be brief for now

Skipper does have a slipped disc lumbar area and age related wearing of his spine and joints
He changed the meds wants me to try Diazapam on Skipper said it is more of a muscle relaxer
and will help him sleep through the night
has reflexes in his hind legs knees and toes, why didn't the other Vets check for reflex action
he is still really super duper grounded though,
He gave him a good exam, says yes I can massage him, gave me a few to try at home just don't over do it if pain stop immediately and try later, heating pad may help

Skipper was so good there, tried to explain to him the night before he was going to the Vet and was going to a rough visit as they have to really look you over so we can get you back up on all 4's
Vet said in all his years has never had anyone come in with a notepad with questions and write down what he was saying, got to decipher my own notes now
kandykane
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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critters wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:38 am At my sister's house I use the "ditch method" to load her lawn mower into my truck, but not at home--I'd probably sink up to the axles--again!
I like the ditch method idea, problem here is they are to soft and would get stuck for sure if I was to use my sisters tahoe
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/drugs.htm#valium

Medication for the muscle spasms sounds good. I don't remember anyone mentioning diazepam for muscle spasms here, but dodgerslist does have it on their list of meds for muscle spasms. Quite a few people here have used it to help with expressing the bladder. I hope it does help him sleep, poor guy. I've never had diazepam for anything but I've had flexeril for back/neck problems (it's a muscle relaxer) and it is such a relief. Super duper grounded also sounds very good. Just hearing that makes me think you have a better vet. And it sounds like he actually did a neurological exam. If you have time to explain more about the exam, or anything else he said tomorrow, I'd be interested. If he happened to give a location for the disk problem (like T13 or L2 or something) that would be nice to know. Hope you guys have a good night and the beginning of a good weekend.
:offtobed: :sleepingdog: :snooze:
kandykane
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

Post by kandykane »

Tried to post yesterday just wasn't enough time, busy frustrating day it was now better

and then decipher my notes yep I could have been a Dr the way I wrote Friday in some areas

Between L 2 and L 3 of Skipper's spine is the problem

I am doing mild massages for now gave Skipper a grounded all day day as figure he needed to
distress from the ride and exam Friday, So massages started today not all but some

PHYSICAL THERAPY EXERCISES THAT ARE HELPFUL DURING THE FIRST 3-4 WEEKS OF CONFINEMENT

1 - Massage the area gently to improve circulation to the area. This is done as many times a day as possible during the first 3-5 days and after that drop to three times daily.
2 - Sensory input is important caudal to the spinal lesion. This entails tickling and pinching the toes. (A withdraw reflex should be elicited. The idea is to make the dog aware of the feet.)
3 - Traction exercise for a lumbar disk issue: pick up the dog from the front end under the arm pits and dangle him. This is done 10 times daily to start and down to 3 times daily by the third week.
4 - Traction exercise for a lumbar disk issue: (Can be done lying down or standing). Pull the tail at its natural angle for 30 seconds or so. This is done 10 times daily to start and drop down to three times daily by the third week.

Vet was impressed with Skipper, he did a full exam, even checked his teeth, ears the whole nine yards, from the tip of his nose to his tail,He said for being 14 he is in excellent shape, good weight and mellow, I said ya he usually goes with the flow and I always make sure he is ok and now this
Did say it is common in Dachshunds and Bassets to have this happen in the older years also said I should watch now that this happened that they can develop hip dyspepsia, especially he asked if he ever did like a bunny hop Yes I said but I thought it was because he did chase a couple rabbits many years ago i thought he was just imitating them Great I'm thinking he is suppose to be enjoying his elder years
the Diazapam seems to be working good with the prednazone he would be antzy for a bit while it was taking effect with the diazapam he is mellow
Dr says I can call or come in any time, let his secretary know it's Skipper and give her a brief message about my concerns and he will call me back personally if I call and if I come in he will make the time for Skipper
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Re: Please help new to this Skipper my dog is lame both back legs

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Sorry to hear yesterday was a rough day. I'm glad the diazepam seems to be helping. I'll just be honest, your dog is getting a different kind of treatment than I have usually seen reported, and the traction exercises are completely new to me. I do not see traction mentioned anywhere on Dodgerlist. I did find hanging traction listed on the caninefitness website on an information sheet about conservative treatment for IVDD. I am going to quote what I found here. The author is highly educated in canine rehabilitation.
Conservative ManagementofChondrodystrophic Dogswith Thoracolumbar Intervertebral Disc Disease (IVDD)By Laurie Edge-Hughes, BScPT, MAnimSt(Animal Physio), CAFCI, CCRT

ADDRESS DISC COMPRESSION / DISC LESION

It may be appropriate in the case of a mild to moderately affected animal with T-L IVDD to address the disc, cord or dural environment or to reduce disc compression. Traction has been utilized in humans to improve back or neck pain symptoms and clinical findings in patients with disc herniations and can also decrease the size of herniated disc materials.3, 18In the case of a Hansen‟s Type 1 IVDD, there is disc material extrusion as compared to a herniation, and the effectiveness of traction has not been formally studied on this population. Traction in the canine patient should therefore be attempted with the attitude that; “if it helps, use it, if it hurts, chooses another therapy.”8Traction for a dachshund could be „hanging traction‟, whereby the owner slowly and gently picks up the dog so that the animal‟s spine is against the owners chest. The owner hugs the animal and allows its hind end to hang and dangle which may traction the spine. This treatment should cease if the animal struggles or symptoms worsen.5
I found a scientific study where they used x-rays to determine whether the hanging traction had actually improved the spacing between the vertebrae, and they concluded it made no significant difference.
A17 A radiographic study on the effect of hanging traction on the intervertebral disc space width in 17 Daschunds

Conclusions: The fact that traction induced by hanging or sitting does not result in widened IVDSs in most of the positions, brings into question the supposed effectiveness of this form of conservative treatment.

My first reaction to the idea of hanging traction was, ohmygoodness, they don't recommend dogs doing anything with that much movement during crate rest. When I read her description of how to do it, I could see it was a very careful maneuver, but I still hesitate because it is one thing to try it with a 15 lb dachshund that you can easily lift in a controlled manner and set back down in a completely controlled manner without bending his back in any way. It is another thing to try it with a nearly 50 lb dog, and setting him back down gently without putting weight on his feet or bending his back or twisting him at all, especially since he only has partial use of one leg right now, it would require a lot of control to do that safely. This physical therapist in the article is is talking about dachshunds, not heavy dogs. And the vet is thinking like a strong man who can lift 50-lb dogs all day no problem, good for him. He wants you to do that 10 times a day? The more I think about it the more I am shaking my head. I'm really not convinced the hanging traction exercise is a good idea. I know how it looks, someone on the internet with no medical training disagreeing with a vet, but I don't think it's worth the risk.

Here is a PT video demonstrating tail traction and hanging traction, and you'll notice the therapist picked a small dog to do the hanging traction with, not the big one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2wS-fGDKuc

Massaging the toes to help him feel his feet is something I've seen recommended and done myself, although my understanding is when it is IVDD you really don't want a dog jerking his/her leg during conservative treatment, just very gentle massage for circulation.

Years ago there was a gal here with a black lab with spinal problems and she did different treatments that I was unfamiliar with. She felt sure about what she was doing, she followed her own best judgement and inner sense of what to do, seeing the results as she went along, and her dog did make progress and did recover. That was when I learned there is more than one path to recovery, so I try not to be close-minded. But I still think if traction didn't show significant results in the scientific study, and does carry some risk because of his size and maybe his old age, I think I'd pass on that.

I really want this all to turn out the best possible for the two of you.
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