We think ivdd... new to this

Neurological Disorders Resources. Treatment and care for pets having pain or trouble walking or standing due to spinal injuries or neurological disorders like IVDD, FCE and DM.
Kboeckmann
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We think ivdd... new to this

Post by Kboeckmann »

3A168E77-1E30-40BB-8609-FC0F7EC9D1D7.jpeg
I am new to this, we woke up the other day and mi big girl Sophie a 10 year old basset hound black lab mix could not stand up, he back legs more or less not functioning, we went to the vet straight away and they said it’s either fce or ivdd but in order to know she needs and mri or ct scan which only Cornell vet can do and that’s 3 hours away, just the test is 2000 dollars. I can not afford that. Let along the cost of surgery on top of that for another 5000. She eats drinks pees poops wags her tail she can kind of stand up if I pick her butt up but can’t walk she falls back down. When I take her potty with a towel supporting her she can move her legs but does have what I guess is called knuckling? So I don’t think she’s paralyzed I think it’s paresis? What are the chances for recovery at all with this she’s on prednisone and Gabapentin but I have not noticed any real difference. It’s only been 3-4 days though. Looking over stuff I think maybe she’s level 3 ivdd can anyone help or confirm my thoughts? Thank you for any support I love my big girl and want to help her
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CarolC
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

Post by CarolC »

Hi Kboeckmann,

:gang:

If surgery is not an option, then your other choice is 8 weeks of strict crate rest, in the crate (or whatever small enclosure you can arrange) 24/7 and only out to potty. She's probably too big for your to carry her out to potty, but you want to avoid walking any more than necessary to get the job done, and she shouldn't be doing stairs. If she has a disk problem, activity right now could make things much worse. It is fortunate she still has bowel and bladder control. :) That means she has a better chance of recovery, if you can just keep her still and make sure she really rests, even if she whines.

It's great that she's not fully paralyzed. How long is the predisone for, and is she scheduled for a recheck when it runs out? When my big dog couldn't walk, he was knuckling like your dog. They gave him prednisone for two weeks and rechecked him. He was a little better, but when the vet flipped his paw, he still did not correct it quickly, so the vet continued the prednisone. It took time but he slowly got to where he was feeling more comfortable and able to get around better. The first week was the hardest because he was in pain and didn't like being confined, but there was no choice. He whined a lot, but after about a week he kind of got used to the new normal and stopped whining.

Improvement from a disk problem can be slow, it's not surprising if you aren't seeing an obvious change in 3 days. It takes time, and it is important not to let them resume activity early when you see them begining to improve. They need the full period of rest to be sure the healing is complete. As her mom, you may have to use tough love, and also ensure that other members of the family understand she is supposed to be resting, and there are no exceptions.

With a dog this size, the easiest way to crate her might be with an x-pen. You can close her inside it when she's resting, and open it to walk her out when it's potty time. Crate rest does not have to be in a crate, and with a big dog, you are likely to strain yourself getting her in and out of an actual crate. Another idea is to create a small safe space for her by arranging furniture so she has a small area for her blankets and water bowl, but she can't get out. Here is a nice picture of Tinker doing crate rest in an x-pen.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=20576&p=104224#p104224

Here is some information on crate rest.

http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm
Kboeckmann
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

Post by Kboeckmann »

Hi thanks for replying! I am hopeful that with time she will at least regain some mobility. She is a big girl and right now we basically block her in with chairs to make a pen but can look into getting one. Unfortunately mri and surgery are out of my financial possibility at 8,000 dollars. The vet said let them know how’s she’s doing, her meds right now are for 2 weeks, I asked her if she’s not any better at that point will she still maybe improve and she said probably not. She did say she appears very much healthy otherwise and that a wheelchair could be an option. I know she’s moderately old as she just turned 10 but I don’t want to put her down if she’s still got spunk. She does whine a good amt but not as though she’s in pain more so like you said not being able to just do what she wants and having to remain still. Can I ask when you noticed subtle improvements in your pooch? Obviously every pup is different but I guess I’m probably just as nervous and anxious as she is!
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CarolC
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

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Kboeckmann wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:15 am The vet said let them know how’s she’s doing, her meds right now are for 2 weeks, I asked her if she’s not any better at that point will she still maybe improve and she said probably not.
I'd be surprised if she was suddenly a whole lot better in only 2 weeks, it takes time for a disk to heal. The swelling has to go down and the actual ring around the disk that holds the "filling" inside has to heal over. That part alone takes 6 weeks. Whatever improvement you are going to see, I'd expect it to be very gradual, and I'd expect it to take longer than 2 weeks for her to improve. If she still can't walk after 8 weeks of honest "no cheating" crate rest, then the wheelchair may be the best choice, along with PT if you can afford it, but it's too soon to know how she'll do yet.

I've been trying to remember how it went exactly with Merlin. I know it took him a week on the medication to start to feel less painful, that first week was the hardest, or it may have been a little more than a week. By the time we were 2 weeks past the injury (he fell trying to jump into the station wagon) and the vet rechecked him, he still was not able to flip his feet like he was supposed to, so his neurological signs were still there but he wasn't in as much pain. Even if he flipped his paw, there would still be at least one toe knuckled under. I do remember he was a lot better by 7 weeks of crate rest, because during the 7th week it was hard to keep him from overdoing it, and he was supposed to rest a full 8 weeks.

Does your dog seem to have pain in any certain area of her back?
Kboeckmann
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

Post by Kboeckmann »

Hey thanks for the reply! She does not appear to have much pain honestly, you can try to make her back hurt like gently to moderately with your thumb all over and nothing, the vet said some dogs are very stoic and don’t show pain but then she could also not be in pain. We are not sure if it’s FCE or IVDD as I unfortunately can not afford the few grand just for the mri.
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critters
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

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CarolC wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:13 pm

I'd be surprised if she was suddenly a whole lot better in only 2 weeks, it takes time for a disk to heal.
:whale:
I agree. I'd be shocked at a recovery in only 2 weeks, but I'm glad the vet wasn't a gloom and doom type and was positive about such things as a wheelchair.
Kboeckmann
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

Post by Kboeckmann »

Hey thanks, she was not doom and gloom kind of straight forward which is fine but she certainly at least at this point has not brought up putting her down. She said she’s a healthy dog minus this issue and if we can adequately provide her a good life still there’s no reason not too. I am still hoping for a full recovery hopefully. I have read ivdd is very painful but my pup is not as far as myself or the vet could tell in any “serious” pain at least. Also her left leg is in worse shape than her right which from what I’ve read may be more of a sign if FCE l, does anyone know about that disease at all. The vet said it’s one if the 2 but without mri or ct it’s virtually impossible to know which.
Thanks!
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critters
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

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Bad discs can have 1 leg worse than the other, too.
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CarolC
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

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Kboeckmann wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:06 pmAlso her left leg is in worse shape than her right which from what I’ve read may be more of a sign if FCE l, does anyone know about that disease at all. The vet said it’s one if the 2 but without mri or ct it’s virtually impossible to know which.
If it is FCE, that would be great. In FCE recovery is the norm. My dog's physical therapist told me 85% of dogs with FCE will recover. In the past they talked about the 2 possible differential diagnoses you mentioned, IVDD or FCE, but in recent years they are adding one more, ANNPE.

http://www.nhveterinaryspecialists.com/ ... and-annpe/

The issue with not knowing the diagnosis is, the treatments are different. With FCE or ANNPE the treatment would be physical therapy. With a disk it would be either surgery or strict crate rest. With FCE, all the damage that was going to be done has already been done and you do not need to be careful with the dog (which is why you can start intensive physical therapy soon after the injury).

With a disk, it is more complicated. A disk that is partly damaged (bulging, not ruptured) needs time for swelling to go down and a better shape to return to the disk. This takes weeks of strict rest. If the dog is allowed to be active, the partly damaged disk can get much worse, possibly resulting in complete paralysis. This leaves the owner in a quandary. If it is FCE you want to do physical therapy, and if it is a disk you want do do rest and TLC or surgery.

Bassetts are one of the breeds that are prone to disk problems, so that is a consideration. If it is a disk, the fact that she still has feeling and bowel and bladder control means there is a better chance she can improve if she really rests. There are 2 types of disk disease. One is a sudden herniation and the other is a more chronic condition that develops in older dogs. The chronic type may or may not be painful, so the fact that she isn't showing obvious pain does not necessarily rule out a disk problem in a large breed older dog. If it is a chronic condition, you may have seen some slight signs before that you chalked up to old age or arthritis. If it were my dog, I would lean toward resting her and supporting her carefully when she has to go out, and keeping her on medication to get the swelling down. Hopefully she can get back on her feet, but I would expect improvement to be slow and gradual. Keep in mind that the disk is healing a tiny bit more every day, slowly where you cannot see it, even though she may look much the same.
https://www.vscvets.com/surgery/neurology-conditions/intervertebral-disc-disease-ivdd wrote: Chronic disc herniations in the back are characterized by slowly progressive weakness and difficulty getting up or jumping. They may or may not be painful depending on the degree of spinal cord compression.
Kboeckmann
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

Post by Kboeckmann »

I am certainly trying to let her rest as much as possible, she is doing better albeit not much. I went to get something in the kitchen and our son goes Sophie bad dog! I came out and she was standing up, she got up on her own. I use a harness thing to take her potty so I hold her back end and now when I take the harness off she doesn’t go limp noodle she stands on her own and she did take a few steps as well on her own. I really wish I could know what it is unfortunately I have some financial limitations. We will hopefully continue a slow improvement!
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CarolC
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

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This is the best news! Woohoo!!! You can't stop her from standing up, but I'm glad your son really understands about the exercise restriction. This is a reason she has a small enclosure or crate, so if she stands up she won't really be able to go anywhere, she'll still have to rest, even if she thinks she's ready to go again. :)

The better she seems to feel, the more tempting it will be for family members to let her out. That's where the tough love comes in. No lying on the bed, no walking around the kitchen, no sitting on the sofa. She needs time to really lock in the healing, which is why it needs to be the full number of weeks, no cheating, it takes really tough love. I guess she has her own lockdown, like most of us do, but for a different reason. :)

You need to still limit her at potty time. Only as many steps as are absolutely needed to get the job done. No off leash. If you can control her forward movement with the towel, good. If not, she may need a leash and the towel, which is a bit tricky with a large dog but here are some examples of Goldie and Tinker.
http://www.alldogssite.com/paradegoldie7.html
http://www.alldogssite.com/paradegoldie7.html
http://tinkerbeagle.blogspot.com/
http://tinkerbeagle.blogspot.com/
There is another illustration (graphic drawing) here:

http://www.dodgerslist.com/literature/CrateRRP.htm

Congratulations on the progress!!!
:hurray:
Kboeckmann
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

Post by Kboeckmann »

Thanks for the comment and photos! That’s a good idea because for being 10 she is very strong! She tries to pull me all over the back yard but I keep her as limited as I can. I’m glad she was able to get up but I’m also scared she is going to think she’s super dog and tries to do too much as she frankly is a very stubborn girl and wants what she wants. Our son is great he’s 4 and says Sophie no! Don’t move or we can’t fix your legs. She has now finished her Gabapentin so we will see if there is any pain now and she is on prednisone every other day now. Thank you for your support!
Kboeckmann
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

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Thanks for the comment and photos! That’s a good idea because for being 10 she is very strong! She tries to pull me all over the back yard but I keep her as limited as I can. I’m glad she was able to get up but I’m also scared she is going to think she’s super dog and tries to do too much as she frankly is a very stubborn girl and wants what she wants. Our son is great he’s 4 and says Sophie no! Don’t move or we can’t fix your legs. She has now finished her Gabapentin so we will see if there is any pain now and she is on prednisone every other day now. Thank you for your support!
Kboeckmann
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

Post by Kboeckmann »

Thanks for everyone that has been following this post the last couple days our dog has made good progress and today when I took her out to go potty she was standing up on her own and walked by her self she’s also stood up on her own a couple times inside while she was in her crated enclosure and taken some steps as well we are about 11 days in since she had her problem. With the fact that she has made this amount of progress in only 10 or 11 days be more likely that it was an FCE Or could a dog that Had an IVDD issue heal and be able to move that quickly? Thanks all!
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CarolC
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Re: We think ivdd... new to this

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That is again the best possible news. I am not a vet, you might ask the vet, but I don't think you can rule out a disk from seeing her back on her feet in 10-11 days. Compared to a lot of cases she was not that bad to begin with, she still had bowel and bladder control and could wag her tail. I my nonmedical imagination I could see the prednisone getting the swelling down and allowing the nerve function to improve enough for her to get up again. I think my Merlin was walking by about that point, too, but there was still room for improvement.

If it was my dog, not knowing the diagnosis for sure, I would celebrate the progress but continue to crate her the rest of the crate rest period. This is a perfect example of how hard it can be to follow through once you begin to see improvement, whether it comes at 10 days or 2 weeks or a month or 7 weeks. There have been some dogs that relapsed here by being active too soon. I always kind of feel like you're really lucky if the dog improves at all (because unfortunately some don't), and I wouldn't want to take a chance and mess that up and cause a setback, because there's no way to know whether you will be able to regain the lost ground a second time. Just my :2cents:
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