dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Neurological Disorders Resources. Treatment and care for pets having pain or trouble walking or standing due to spinal injuries or neurological disorders like IVDD, FCE and DM.
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

Soffe never chewed her paws before so we think it started with a allergy but then I she chewy it and it became infected then when she got the anti inflammatory is when she started getting feeling in her legs and I think it hurt so she has been trying to get those paws. I think we have a couple of things going on.
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critters
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by critters »

:welcome: Soffe. Yes, nerves typically heal eventually, but it can take a while.
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

Soffes been on gabapentin for a week now and she is doing better. She doesn't seem so obsessed with her paws. We still have the one wrapped with a dog sock and her other one just with a sock. When we have to leave I put her dog drag bag on. So far she's doing good. She not as anxious and we are going to have her sleep with her bag on. We are determined to help her through this.
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CarolC
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by CarolC »

That is great! I'm glad she's doing better. I never heard of using a drag bag (or drag bag + socks) for this, but as an added measure on top of medication it's an interesting idea. Thanks for updating!
:thankyou:
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

Yes the drag bag and socks keeps her safe when she's left at home during the day. She can't get to her paws at all. When we are home I take the drag bag off and she just has socks on. I take off socks when she's on my lap only so I can keep an eye on her. So far, the combination is working along with medication. The meds are not expensive so she will stay on them for as long as she needs. I'll keep updating on her
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

So we are very pleased with soffes progress. She is in her own bed tonight with socks and a drag bag so she cannot get to her back paws.her bad paw that she almost bit off is now healed thanks to the ointment Manuka that the vet gave us. She's doing good and I think we will keep doing socks when we r home but still both sock and bag for night and when we are gone. I also give her some benadryl still the children's liquid to help with any itching. She's doing so good. I'm so glad for this forum that helped me get the meds to help her. We are going to do therapy on her to see if she can walk again.
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

Update on soffe. During early morning she got to her other paw and knawrd on it and thank God my husband woke to hear her. We hVe all the slave and supplies so we wrapped it real good and taking her to vet today. Hopefully we can save her paw like we did the other one. We will have to up her medicine. She's ok for now. She's never messed with this paw so now we are back to square one. I will not give up on this little girl till we get this resolved. I have new drag bags coming, but I'm not leaving her at all for quite awhile now like we were doing.
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CarolC
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

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Soffe wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:31 am Update on soffe. During early morning she got to her other paw and knawrd on it and thank God my husband woke to hear her.
I agree!

Hopefully upping the dosage will take care of it. I'm attaching a dosing chart that shows a range for gabapentin for the management of neuropathic pain in dogs. It says 10-20 mg per kg every 8 hours (which would be 3 times a day).

It is from this article, which is very thorough.

One kg = 2.2 pounds. Here are sample conversions for a small dog. I'm not a mathematician, double-check my figures, I'm using the Google converter.

2 kg = 4.4 lbs
3 kg = 6.6 lbs
4 kg = 8.8 lbs
5 kg = 11 lbs
6 kg = 13 lbs
7 kg = 15.4 lbs

gabapentin_dosing.PNG

The article also mentions pregabalin (which is more expensive than gabapentin). It also says they have had some success with tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline. Your vet could probably understand the article in more detail.

Other ideas (until you are sure the dosing is working) are a cone collar or a muzzle, but dogs can get out of both.

You might show your husband this idea. One family here used electrical conduit to protect their dog's hind legs. They used a piece of conduit that is slightly bent and it fitted over the legs perfectly. It was a for a bigger dog, but pipe comes in different sizes.

:arrow: :arrow: viewtopic.php?p=107012#p107012

If your dog is on anything else, such as the benadryl, I'd be sure to tell the vet. I hope they can get it sorted out for you!! So very glad your husband woke up.
:angel:
KrissyG
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(Does chewing always mean regeneration?) Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by KrissyG »

My 9 yr old German Shepherd, Maya, has always been a very high energy dog. 2 months ago she suddenly lost the use of her left hind leg. X-rays and vet said hip dysplasia and arthritis. But then 3 days later she was fully paralyzed from the waist down. He gave a recommended treatment plan but I couldn't understand how she could suddenly be paralyzed so abruptly. I researched and thought it was Degenerative Myeolapathy and that she had somehow progressed quickly. So, I took her to see another vet for another opinion and learn how to care for her. Vet#2 disagreed and we watched her do a spinal exam and my dog clearly felt pain in her lower spine. This vet said she strongly felt this was IVDD - has all the symptoms and is not DM. Unfortunately, by this time - Maya was not feeling deep pain😢. We were referred to a specialist and told that her chances of walking were less than 50% at this stage. I got three price quotes and all came to about $12k when you include MRI, etc.

So we sought out a 3rd opinion - a veterinary rehab specialist- who basically said she thinks it is BOTH the IVDD and the DM (in addition to hip dysplasia and spinal arthritis). She felt like Maya would not be a good candidate for surgery because of all things combined.

Maya started chewing the tops and sides of her paws about 2 weeks after being paralyzed. I started putting socks on her and the 2d vet prescribed 300 mg gabapentin every 6 hours. It was helping but as soon as we get close to the 4 hour mark - she starts trying to chew through socks and the boots we put on over them.

So, we had to up her dose to 600mg every six hours. She also takes carprofen. She's 90lbs. This helped for about 3 days. We've been able to let her sit outside w/o her collar/cone when she has on bandages, socks and boots over the socks. (When the gabapentin was too low she would tear through all of it)

Today - instead of tearing through the layers protecting her paws - she chewed another wound on herself above the boot. 😭😢

Does this mean nerves are regenerating and that's a good thing? Will it eventually stop?

I gave her an extra 300 mg of the gabapentin even though she was still 3 hours from her next dose. Will gabapentin eventually not work?

Right now her routine is socks on and cone collar off during the day IF someone is home with her and she wears cone collar overnight with socks off to give wounds a chance to breathe and heal.They we're almost all healed and then today she chewed a new one.
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Re: (Does chewing always mean regeneration?) Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by CarolC »

Hi KrissyG,

:group:

Replies below in blue, with a disclaimer that I am not a vet. Anything I say is from being a layman, and at best based on experience or seeing the experience of others.

Does she still have bladder control?

This will be a long reply, but I'd like to say at the beginning that I would want to be sure to have the dog in a secure cone collar at all times right now. There are other medications that can also be used for neuropathic pain, including Pregabalin and tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline. Here is a link discussing the various medications.
:arrow: :arrow: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4762016/

KrissyG wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 2:10 pm My 9 yr old German Shepherd, Maya, has always been a very high energy dog. 2 months ago she suddenly lost the use of her left hind leg. X-rays and vet said hip dysplasia and arthritis. But then 3 days later she was fully paralyzed from the waist down. He gave a recommended treatment plan but I couldn't understand how she could suddenly be paralyzed so abruptly. I researched and thought it was Degenerative Myeolapathy and that she had somehow progressed quickly. So, I took her to see another vet for another opinion and learn how to care for her. Vet#2 disagreed and we watched her do a spinal exam and my dog clearly felt pain in her lower spine. This vet said she strongly felt this was IVDD - has all the symptoms and is not DM.

I would think if she was developing DM you would have noticed signs before, such as scuffing her toes or wearing down her claws when walking, but I am no expert on DM. To me (a layman) it sounds more disk related.

Unfortunately, by this time - Maya was not feeling deep pain😢. We were referred to a specialist and told that her chances of walking were less than 50% at this stage. I got three price quotes and all came to about $12k when you include MRI, etc.

If you can afford it (agree, they are not cheap!) it would be helpful to have the MRI so you know what is really going on. Then you have a better idea of how best to treat it. If it is a disk, it should show on the imaging.

Some cases of a dog going down with a disk problem will respond to a number of weeks of strict crate rest and anti-inflammatory medication such as steroids. You've got her on Rimadyl. That was helpful for my senior dog for arthritis. For IVDD they often give steroids like prednisone.


So we sought out a 3rd opinion - a veterinary rehab specialist- who basically said she thinks it is BOTH the IVDD and the DM (in addition to hip dysplasia and spinal arthritis). She felt like Maya would not be a good candidate for surgery because of all things combined.

Yes, a dog can have both DM and Type II IVDD (the kind that is more common in large breeds) but without imaging you can't tell if a disk is involved. As Bobbie says, Type II IVDD can mimic DM.

There is a DNA test for DM. It would tell whether your dog is a carrier for it.
https://www.ofa.org/diseases/dna-tested-diseases/dm


I might hesitate to do spinal surgery because of her age for a large breed, but if her overall health is young for her age, as some dogs are, then that would make her a better candidate. Overall health would include bloodwork to check kidneys, liver, and anything you want to be sure is in good health before a possible surgery.

Maya started chewing the tops and sides of her paws about 2 weeks after being paralyzed. I started putting socks on her and the 2d vet prescribed 300 mg gabapentin every 6 hours. It was helping but as soon as we get close to the 4 hour mark - she starts trying to chew through socks and the boots we put on over them.

So, we had to up her dose to 600mg every six hours. She also takes carprofen. She's 90lbs. This helped for about 3 days. We've been able to let her sit outside w/o her collar/cone when she has on bandages, socks and boots over the socks. (When the gabapentin was too low she would tear through all of it)

Today - instead of tearing through the layers protecting her paws - she chewed another wound on herself above the boot. 😭😢

Does this mean nerves are regenerating and that's a good thing? Will it eventually stop?

My guess (total guess) is that it is a positive sign that some swelling is going down around the area of a sore disk and some feeling is returning. Only a guess, because she does not currently have a firm diagnosis whether this is a disk or DM or something else, but I think you would have noticed signs of DM gradually appearing before this, which makes a disk seem more likely. You may want to get her deep pain sensation checked again at her next appointment to see if there is a change. But also keep in mind some dogs are stoic and they may have deep pain sensation but not show it when tested in the vet clinic.

The confusion is that if it is DM, some dogs will lick and chew with DM. With a disk problem the chewing occurs as the nerves are improving, while with DM it is because the nerves are getting progressively worse. In both cases, the nerves are not functioning at 100%, making them feel numb or tingly or have other odd sensations, but for different reasons. One (disk) because they were damaged and are improving. The other (DM) because they were normal but are degenerating. Here is a link about chewing in DM.

https://siriusdog.com/degenerative-myelopathy-spinal-german-shepherd-dm/ wrote:
Dogs with DM often develop lick granulomas, which are ulcerations or (if you are lucky) callous-like reactions of the skin to extremely frequent licking, sometimes chewing, at the location of a supposed itch. It is probably a case of the limb feeling as if it has “fallen asleep,” to put it into terms familiar to human experience. The tingling sensation caused by incomplete and erroneous signals by the nerves serving that place is much like the irritation caused by an ant bite, or hairs out of place, or anything in between.
I gave her an extra 300 mg of the gabapentin even though she was still 3 hours from her next dose. Will gabapentin eventually not work?

Right now her routine is socks on and cone collar off during the day IF someone is home with her and she wears cone collar overnight with socks off to give wounds a chance to breathe and heal.They we're almost all healed and then today she chewed a new one.

It's kind of up to each person to decide how much to restrict or protect their own dog. I tend to be very-very cautious with this subject of chewing because I've seen so many dogs here dealing with the problem There was Pete who nearly chewed his foot off repeated (before they had medication for it), Eros (a GSD) who chewed his feet and had toes amputated, 2 dogs that chewed so badly they were put to sleep. In one case the owner had been keeping a cone collar on and went into the other room for only a few minutes, but that was all it took for her dog to chew. Here is what she posted.
https://handicappedpet.net/helppets/viewtopic.php?p=64984#p64984 wrote:
For the past week I've been doctoring her back feet which she had started chewing on. Her foot was almost healed and when I left her alone today for a few minutes to eat, and when I came back into the room, she had chewed off so much she just couldn't be saved.

Another dog had a double amputation of both hind legs.
viewtopic.php?p=15290#p15290

Another dog chewed his penis off.
https://handicappedpet.net/helppets/viewtopic.php?p=63931#p63931 wrote:
I came home from work and towels, blanket, dog, everything was covered in blood. I took him out in the yard, I could tell he was bleeding from his penis, but not exactly where he was injured (he still had his penis at this point). I cleaned him up the best I could, and went in the house to get a grip. When I went back outside a few minutes later I couldn't see his penis anymore, and there were "parts" laying on the ground under him. He actually looked comfortable, and not upset at all. I almost fainted.

Another dog chewed at night while the family was asleep and was euthanized.
viewtopic.php?p=65205#p65205

I do not think you can possibly be too careful. I understand about letting air get to the feet, but I don't think I would take the collar off unless I was going to be right beside the dog. And dogs sometimes get out of cone collars so if possible, I would tie the cone on, and then also tie the strings onto her leather collar for extra security.

https://www.northtownvethospital.com/keep-the-cone-on/ wrote:
Houdinis: some animals are very good at escaping the cone. In these cases, the more secure fastening of the e-collar may be necessary. These can include tying the cone to the animal’s regular collar or harness

You may have seen the link earlier in this thread to a family that made hard leg protectors for their dog out of electrical conduit. That dog was a GSD like yours. Here is the link if you want to look.
https://handicappedpet.net/helppets/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=21327&p=107012#p107012 wrote: I have a 5 year old German Shepherd named Kaeley. She had a stroke of her spine about a year and a half ago. Like you, we have to help her urinate and defecate. She is about 70 pounds and we have a cart for her. At first she just went backwards, trying to get away from the cart. Now she is unstoppable. She waffles her brothers and can maneuver like a pro. She recently began to chew on her back legs which dont work. So far we have only lost a toe, but even tho she doesnt chew on her feet when we are around, she will dive in the minute we leave her alone. I improvised with a trip to home depot and made up two "Braces" made of electrical conduit which I slip over her back legs and tape them to her legs. I got the pipes that are angled at 45* and they fit perfectly.
Nothing is going to be 100% guaranteed, but if it was my dog I'd feel better with something hard and chew proof covering her legs, and I might keep the collar on to prevent chewing the tapes off the leg braces. I would keep them on until you and the vet are sure the medication has the chewing under control.

I am going to make a summary of what I have picked up from experience here.
  • Chewing is usually considered a temporary phase some dogs go through following spinal injury, however it should not be underestimated, in extreme cases it has been fatal
  • It often means the nerves are improving, but in some cases such as degenerative myelopathy it can occur as the nerves progressively deteriorate
  • The theory is the dog is feeling a pins-and-needles or burning sensation, sort of like we feel when we sleep on our arm funny and it goes numb and then tingles while it is waking back up
  • It is usually temporary, but I'm not aware of any guideline on how long it might last for any indivdual dog
  • It often occurs following a spinal injury or spinal surgery but can also occur later. There have been dogs here that developed chewing 2 years and 4 years after spinal injury
  • It can be treated with medication for neuropathic pain, such as gabapentin, pregabalin, or tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline
  • Medication is the best solution as most methods to prevent chewing will not work, however the dog needs to be prevented from chewing until the right dose of medication has been found
  • Cone collar - dogs can get out of it, helpful to tie the strings and also attach it to the dog's leather collar, use your judgment
  • Muzzle - dogs can paw them off
  • Applying bad tasting substances such as Bitter Apple or YUK-2-E - dogs will ignore it and chew anyway
  • Bandaging - dogs will chew off the bandage
  • Putting the dog in a drag bag - they chew through the drag bag
  • Making hard cover braces for the legs as described above - worked for one family, however feet and legs are not the only areas that have been chewed, especially with male dogs who may chew the penis, so a cone collar may also be needed until you are sure medication dosage is correct

I am not a vet or a mathematician. The dosing info in an earlier post was a maximum of 20mg/kg q8hrs. 90 lbs is 40 kg. That would be (20x40x3) 2400mg total for a 90 lb dog during one 24-hour period. You probably want to talk to the vet about it, as there may be other things to consider on the dosing for an individual dog with her own individual health profile and other meds to take into account. You might also want to check to ensure you have adequate doses (at the higher dosage) to get her through the weekend.

Hope this helps! Most people get through this OK, in spite of how super cautious I know I sounded in this post.
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

Update on soffe. Her bad foot has healed but now she has her other foot wrapped with the honey salve that she had been chewing on. I did buy her a new bag that she wears at might with her socks and she sleeps with me now so I can keep an eye on her. The vet upped her gabapentin so hopefully this works. She's on a pain med and a antibiotic. She is by my side 24/7 even going into stores with me. I am not letting my little girl out of my site. I will not leave her alone at all now. Not sure if this will get better, when her paw heals I'm taking her to a therapist to see if she will walk again because she has feeling. But for now I have to keep her safe from chewing.
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by CarolC »

Thank you for updating. I was wondering how it was going and hoping she was OK. Hopefully the new dosage will be what she needs and you will both be able to relax. Hope she will heal up completely and leave them alone now. :)
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

Soffe is doing so good. Thank you for wondering how she's doing. Her one foot is all healed but still keeping it wrapped with a boot. Her knawed foot is healing nicely. Another minute she would have chewed her toe off. She doesn't leave my side. Meds are working so far. She hasn't even tried to mess with her paws. I keep the bag on her at home. I take it off when I sit with her only. She wears it all night sleeping on my lap on our reclining couch. She goes to stores with me.. I am determined she's going to make it through this.. yesterday She was really standing pushing her back legs up and standing. Once she heals it's therapy time can't wait
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by CarolC »

Soffe wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 9:59 am yesterday She was really standing pushing her back legs up and standing. Once she heals it's therapy time can't wait
Wow! That's neat!! :wow:

Maybe she could get some muscle back by swimming. It would be amazing if you see it helping and see her progressing. If so, I hope you will update, because people who have a dog in this situation might be very encouraged.

Here is a post about my dog, who did something brand new at nearly 5 years post injury, in case anyone thinks healing is not still occurring after 4 years. :D
Soffe
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Re: dog with IDD gnawing at back paralyzed legs

Post by Soffe »

Oh wow that is very encouraging. Did your dog ever walk again? I have just gotten the point that if soffe does walk again on all 4 legs than awesome but if not than that's awesome too. She's a miracle dog healing like she has and not loosing her leg. I will update here. It will be great when we get our pool up. Can't wait to start her therapy. Thank you for the enthusiasm :snoopy:
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