Mystery paralysis

Neurological Disorders Resources. Treatment and care for pets having pain or trouble walking or standing due to spinal injuries or neurological disorders like IVDD, FCE and DM.
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CarolC
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by CarolC »

I'm glad you were able to rule out UTI, though I wish it could be something so common and manageable.

The problem with anything I can think of is it doesn't seem like he should be getting worse at this stage. FCE or ANNPE do not get progressively worse, the dog is stable a couple of days after it happens. Rescuedogmom's dog Stella lost her bark initially with FCE but it came back after about 2 weeks.

A dog with coonhound paralysis should show maximum symptoms in about 10 days, but it's been over 4 weeks since this started. Here is a link with the progression of coonhound paralysis, though this does say "typically", which I guess does not mean always.
https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/coonhound-paralysis wrote:The symptoms typically progress over 4-5 days, although it can take up to 10 days for maximum symptoms to appear.
Bully (quadriplegic bull mastiff with FCE) actually lost his bark and I had forgotten about that.
karkorny in https://handicappedpet.net/helppets/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15754&p=83854&hilit=lost+bark#p83854 wrote:I don't think he had one accident in the two months it took for him to get back on his feet. When it was all over, Bully limped and couldn't turn his head well, and also lost his deep, booming bark (sometimes a blessing for me and the neighbors).
Here's another mention of Bully.

Kobe's Australian shepherd lost his bark with FCE but it came back.

I don't know, it may still turn out to be something else. Going only on the way it started (which resembled FCE/ANNPE), one piece of standard advice for FCE is to try to keep the dog's spirits up because a small percentage of dogs will just give up due to being stressed, vet visits, a worried atmosphere in the home, etc. I think this only applies to around 15% of FCE dogs. If I remember (it's been a while since I checked and information changes) the lowest rate of recovery from FCE I had seen was 69%, and my dog's physical therapist said it was 85%. Being positive is much harder when you don't know for sure what's going on. Going back to the point made at the beginning, if he seems to be showing real physical deterioration (which your description kind of sounds like), FCE shouldn't be getting worse at this point, so it doesn't fit, either.

If he isn't drinking, sub-q fluids are easy to do at home if they give you the supplies (you may have already done them before in the past).

I am so sorry. I hope they will get to the bottom of it for all of your sakes.
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LisainCAN
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by LisainCAN »

I agree with Carol. Nothing about this case makes any sense.

I am trying to think outside the box. I know that in Ontario this year, there have been an abundance of ticks. Monstrous amounts in fact. Is it at all possible he was bitten by a tick and has tick paralysis?

http://www.pethealthnetwork.com/dog-hea ... lysis-dogs

Again the timeline may not fit.

I am so so sorry. Robin is a lucky dog to have all the love in the world.
clonmel08
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by clonmel08 »

Yes, Coonhound Paralysis checked every box and was the final possible diagnosis after Ontario Veterinary College tests showed no spinal trauma or tumors. We are at 4.5 weeks and this disease apparently is out of the dog's system by this time. Typically 3.5-4 weeks to see some sign of improvement. Robin continues to fail or at least show no signs of improvement. He has a great appetite and urinates and defecates normally. He is alert but tires easily. We'll learn more(maybe!) on Tuesday. I'll let you know. Thank you all.
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CarolC
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by CarolC »

I apologize, I had to correct my last 2 posts.
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CarolC
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by CarolC »

You might try a lick bottle for water.
clonmel08
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by clonmel08 »

We did consider ticks. Their effect begins to abate when they are removed. I tried ice with Robin and syringing. I think we wre managing with wet food. We ha e an appointment Tuesday atOVC, to see if we cant get any drugs(steroids) The neurologist said they will reassess him and it may take an hour? I told him we are not doing any more invasive tests, what could possibly take an hour? They only have to examine him withus present to see what condition he is in right?
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CarolC
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Re: Mystery paralysis

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clonmel08 wrote: Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:10 pm The neurologist said they will reassess him and it may take an hour? I told him we are not doing any more invasive tests, what could possibly take an hour? They only have to examine him withus present to see what condition he is in right?
It seems like that would be all they'd have to do, but I don't know and I don't want to try to guess. I really apologize I've done some thinking out loud here that isn't helpful.

I wonder if you could approach it by calling their desk tomorrow and asking for an estimate in advance of the appointment. It seems like that would give you a list of what they plan to do. If you call in the morning, I think they could have it for you sometime tomorrow, well before you go on Tuesday. At least where I am, the specialty hospital or emergency vet will always throw together an estimate and get you to authorize/make a downpayment before they proceed. I have a couple of general lists of neurological tests, but it doesn't help to know which specific ones will be done.

I suppose you could also prepare by making a list of things to tell the vet.

Wish I could be more help on this. I hope Tuesday will be good news or about the same.
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CarolC
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by CarolC »

Sorry, three posts in a row but I just saw something. :book:

Fox terriers have a genetic predisposition to Wobbler disease. That's a neck problem. I think there should be pain associated with it though.

I didn't know any small dogs got it. How well did they examine/image his neck?

https://www.harlingenveterinaryclinic.c ... ox-terrier
clonmel08
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by clonmel08 »

Thanks Carol. Everything everyone has said has been incredibly helpful. I keep thinking that they missed something in his neck too. Robin is sort of my sisters dog. Sadly we had a falling out last night over his illness. We are both very stressed, obviously. She wants to euthanize him. He does look pretty bad and he is dehydrating, lost his voice, completely flaccid now including his neck. I think we should have taken him back for a reassessment last week but we were at our own vet emerg last wednesday. That's when he had fluids and the vet really didn't comment on his condition (being cruel or hopeless). If this appointment doesnt provide treatment and answers my sister has decided to end his misery. He was such a vibrant crazy dog only hours before this happened, thats all I can see in my mind. She's so sensitive and she is only thinking of him. We have had quite a few dear dogs and cats, and rabbits die of cancer so , naturally that's where we always go. I have only a shadow of hope that this new vet may have come up with a treatment.
clonmel08
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by clonmel08 »

Sorry, I just read your links re the exam. I dont think I ever mentioned that Robin has seizures, or did have. He is on phenobarbital and hasnt had a seizure for over a year. They started 8 years ago while we were on vacation and were so few, maybe once every month or 6 weeks we didnt medicate until last year. Related? The vets dont seem to think so but it was mentioned in one of the exam links.
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CarolC
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by CarolC »

I'm sorry about your sister. That happens with husbands and wives, too, wanting to do what's best for the dog and not agreeing.

Yes, I could sort of see where the seizures might have something to do with it. I had a valued co-worker who had epilepsy and he eventually had to retire because his neck was causing symptoms of numbness in his (can't remember) leg or arm. He had to have surgery. I always thought the tensing up that comes with a seizure, and in his case the many falls, might have caused wear and tear on his neck.

I don't know. Wobbler's (they call it Wobbler Syndrome or Wobbler's) is cervical instability. Maybe if you have a dog with a genetic predisposition for Wobbler's, and he's had some seizures, and then he falls and hurts his neck, you could see this.

I would also suggest that vets know a whole lot. I would think if they saw symptoms like this in a Great Dane or Doberman, they might be quick to check for Wobbler's because it's common. Fox terrier, I don't know. How many fox terriers do they see, and did they ever see one for Wobbler's. An article I skimmed was a study of 104 dogs with Wobbler's and only 5 of them were small breeds.

Here's what else I don't know. I'm so ignorant about MRI's. I think they're 3D. I do see (quick search) that positioning matters. I'm going to assume they scanned his neck when they did the MRI, but I wonder if something could have been missed due to positioning?? No idea. This is something to ask about, they would know. Was the MRI done with optimal positioning to show cervical instability?
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236925762_Most_commonly_used_sequences_and_clinical_protocols_for_brain_and_spine_magnetic_resonance_imaging_allowing_better_identification_of_pathological_changes_in_dogs wrote:Magnetic resonance imaging is the best imaging modality for the brain and spine. Quality of the received images depends on many technical factors. The most significant factors are: positioning the patient, proper coil selection, selection of appropriate sequences and image planes.
I guess you were away petsitting for 2 weeks when this happened. Did you or your sister ever see him walking with his head kind of down before he quit walking?

According to this they do not necessarily find pain on manipulation of the neck during the exam.
http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/saortho/chapter_63/63mast.htm wrote:Although manipulation of the neck did not usually elicit pain
Lifespan of a smooth fox terrier is 12-15 years.
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CarolC
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by CarolC »

(Highlighting added throughout.)

Here is another bit of information from an animal rehab practice. It says there is no pain.
http://meadow-farm.com/25.html wrote:
This is an abnormality of the lower cervical vertebrae and is often referred to as ‘Wobbler’ syndrome.
* * *
Symptoms can be sudden or slowly progressive. Signs are characterised by generalised progressive ataxia (poor coordination) and weakness. Early signs may include a stiff neck and low head carriage. Symptoms can include mis-stepping, poor foot placement, wobbly gait, and reduced limb sensation, dragging feet and poor coordination. This can progress to stumbling, frequent falling and paralysis of all limbs. The symptoms depend on the location of the compression and the severity of it. In slower progressive cases, symptoms are not dissimilar to that of chronic degenerative myelopathy (CDM) seen in the German Shepherd breed. There is no pain. If pain is present cervical disc herniation may be suspected. Symptoms can start at any age
This rehab says there is pain associated with it.
https://www.topdoghealth.com/library/orthopedic-condition/articles/wobblers-disease/ wrote:
What are the Signs of Wobbler’s Disease?
Cervical (neck) lesions account for approximately one fifth of all intervertebral disc problems. Most patients experience neck pain as the first and most consistent clinical sign.
This one says there may or may not be pain.
https://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/neurological/c_dg_wobbler_syndrome wrote:
Wobbler Syndrome in Dogs

Cervical spondylomyelopathy (CSM), or wobbler syndrome, is a disease of the cervical spine (at the neck) that is commonly seen in large and giant-breed dogs. CSM is characterized by compression of the spinal cord and/or nerve roots, which leads to neurological signs and/or neck pain.
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/know-signs-therapeutic-options-canine-wobbler-syndrome wrote:
Know signs, therapeutic options for canine Wobbler syndrome

We recognize these dogs as primarily giant and large breeds with the usual history of progressive generalized ataxia and weakness. Occasionally we see an acute onset of signs, perhaps due to trauma or a fall.
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Vite/braund17/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1 wrote:
Clinical signs tend to be slowly progressive but can be abrupt in onset when external trauma is suspected as playing a major precipitating role.
https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/02/13/wobbler-syndrome.aspx wrote:
Symptoms of Wobbler Syndrome

Wobbler's is usually a slow, progressive disease except in cases of acute trauma when it develops very rapidly.
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Re: Mystery paralysis

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clonmel08
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Re: Mystery paralysis

Post by clonmel08 »

What an amzing story. 12 hours from now Robin will be getting his recheck and 2nd assessment. Keep a kind thought for us. In my heart I think he can come back but no one knows what will happen next. You folks have helped me get this far. I'm committed to helping him but my sister has to be on board also. I'll let you know the outcome. This is a new (to us) neurologist at OVC, the original Dr is away. So, maybe a new set of eyes. :hearts:
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