Congenital buckled spine

[critters]

Don't you just love having the wonker nobody can sort out??!!! It sounds like you've found good vets, but be aware that not every vet is willing or able to care for handicappers. Sometimes you have to kiss some toads and throw them back!

[CarolC]

I was just going back and rereading the thread with Tucker and Finn and Lola. On the Boston terrier, Finn

He's very small (he's not quite yet 8 lbs at 6 months....our other Boston was 9.3 lbs at 13 weeks but she's a giant haha)

That being said, she did say he lost his mother at birth (so was apparently a bottle baby?) and has had a problem with giardia. But whatever the reason, he is small.

Then on the Westie, Lola

Lola also stayed miniature at 6 pounds even though she should be 20lbs.

I found a puppy growth chart for Great Pyrenees but it isn't on a breed specific website so I'm not sure how reliable it is. You may have a more trustworthy chart available through the breed contacts you know. Anyway, it expects a 5-month old male to be 59-63 lbs. I thought you posted how much he weighed but I can't find it, I must have imagined it. I see where he was 17 lbs when you got the wheelchair, but not sure how long ago that was. And 23 lbs at the last vet visit, but not sure exactly when that was either. The photo of him in his wheelchair was 2 weeks ago and he still looks small.

I just wonder. With all the caveats that it may not be hemivertebrae (I do not see that reported in his breed), and 2 reports of small size in dogs with this kind of curvature are only two reports, still...maybe he will end up being small overall. I know you mentioned he won't be full weight because of lack of muscle mass in his hindquarters. There's no real way to measure his height or length with his spinal condition. But it may be that he will just turn out to be smaller than usual, which could be a good thing.

There is something else I don't know, but thinking out loud. I'm a little puzzled by something. I think it's great that he dribbles and you don't have to express or catheterize. But it seems unusual for a dog with a spinal condition so high up. A spinal condition affecting the bladder can go either way depending on where the injury is located. If the spinal issue is in the lower back or tail area, it makes the dog leak or dribble (this is called a lower motor neuron bladder). If it is up in the chest area, it normally makes the dog have tight urinary sphincters and retain urine, and need to be expressed or catheterized in order to be emptied (upper motor neuron bladder). Sunspirit's pug, Tucker, ended up being catheterized. That would be consistent with a spinal problem up in the shoulder area, as shown on his x-ray. But Milo dribbles. I can't figure out why.

Are you aware of any other spinal issues down closer to the hip/tail area? If you pet him along his spine, does he have any indentation or dimple or hair cowlick down in that area? My dog, Dolly, who is a dribbler 24/7 and cannot be expressed because her bladder is always empty, has her spinal issue down in her lower back.

Here is a scholarly article that discusses upper motor neuron and lower motor neuron bladders.

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/def ... &pid=11131

[Milo's Mom]

Don't you just love having the wonker nobody can sort out??!!! It sounds like you've found good vets, but be aware that not every vet is willing or able to care for handicappers. Sometimes you have to kiss some toads and throw them back!

I have had bad vets in the past and am very blessed to have a wonderful vet now. He respects me, is appreciative of my knowledge and thought processes, and often comments that he wishes he had more pet parents like me. He thinks it's great that Milo is going to be a spoiled house pet and asks often about his progress.

[Milo's Mom]

Milo weighed 23 lbs one week ago, so has probably gained another two to three pounds this week. I just heard that one of his littermates weighed in at 57 lbs today.

I raise Great Pyrenees and do weekly weight checks on puppies. At 1-3 weeks when puppies creep to mama, Milo was solidly in the middle of the pack in weight and able to push his way through the others to find a teat. Between 3-4 weeks mom will start feeding the puppies while standing and they sit up on their haunches to reach her. At that week's weigh in Milo weighed more than a pound less than most of the other puppies (Milo 3.2 lbs, others 3.8-4.9 lbs). I started taking supplemental bottles to Milo and watching him on my kennel camera. He was walking in a crouch like the other puppies, hips straight, but his back legs splayed outward. I put in a rubber mat for traction, which always helps if a puppy (normally the heaviest) is sliding on the floor. It didn't help him and, worse yet, puppies started to follow their mom out the pet door to spend the day out with her and leaving Milo behind. I brought him in to live in my bedroom with every two hour bottles like he was a newborn and started leg exercises and supported walking. By 7 weeks he could run across the bed using all four legs, as long as I followed behind with two fingers under his butt to support him. He did have a noticeable bulge at the shoulders that seemed like muscle built up from pulling himself along with his front legs. As the weeks went by and he steadily gained weight, he spent more and more time lying with the weaker leg tilted under him for support and using that leg less. Now he's spent so many hours with that leg twisted under him a vertebrae just above the hips has twisted out of position. The neurologist didn't mention any other deformity in the spine (and didn't mention the turned vertebrae in his lumbar spine that was visible when I viewed the x-rays at my vet's office).

He has always tinkled some whenever you touch anywhere near the penis, much like a very young puppy that needs to be stimulated by his mother. (So much pee on my hand when I was using two fingers underneath him to support his walking!) Crawling across the comforter diaperless left a small puddle wherever he stopped to rest. At this point I don't know if he's urinating on his own volition or leaking. He leaves a small puddle on the puppy pad as soon as the diaper is removed, occasionally the diaper seems dry when I take it off first thing in the morning, he likes to pee in his wheelchair but I now leave the belly band on because the placement of the leg straps seemed to irritate when he was naked. Maybe he doesn't wait to void because waiting has never been a normal thing for him. Maybe I need to set a strict wheelchair-time schedule so he knows he only has *** time to wait. Not sure how to potty train a puppy who doesn't squat and has spent his entire life in a diaper.

The neurologist visit was an assessment to see if Milo would benefit from surgery, though it would have been something I'd need to save up for after spending our savings to move my sister here. After pointing out his main spinal issue and saying it was congenital, she didn't spend much time on prognosis.

We do genetic screening on all of our adults and hip/elbow/patella x-rays to prevent passing on detrimental genes, but Milo is our first congenital abnormality. Some of my puppy families also have special needs dogs at home so I do know some who would be willing to step in if necessary, but Milo is my baby and his home is here.

We celebrate every little accomplishment. He's genetically suited to guard livestock (or his people) and has found his big boy bark. When he hears the dogs outside trash talking coyotes in the night, he joins in joyously with snout pointed to the ceiling, right next to Bob's ear. If he wants to turn around quickly he launches himself with two powerful hops of his front legs, using Bob's sleeping form as a spring board. Wheelchair time has really helped him, along with several a couple hours after walking when he lies on the kitchen floor and plays with four darting, barking, 5 lb Yorkies. He slaps his front feet on the floor like a Sumo wrestler to invite them to play. I woke up last night to see him sitting straight up in bed like a real dog, the better to see over Bob and alert us that some intruder (like the cat) was walking around the living room. This evening all the little dogs tired out and snoozed on a comforter in the corner, leaving Milo lying alone in the middle of the room. He decided he wanted to join them and started pulling himself in their direction. I started to pick him up to move him there and lifted up the rear end first. He took off faster than he'd ever moved the the wheelchair and walked himself right over to the comforter with me holding up his rear and trying to keep up. Milo may never be able to walk normally, but he's sure learning fast how to be mobile.

[CarolC]

Sounds like he's been very well fed, yet he is still on the small side. Not sure if he will catch up later or just stay a more modest size. You sure have taken good care of him at every step along the way. No wonder he has such a sweet, happy look on his face.

I do not see any way this has anything to do with breeding. I think sometimes Nature just happens. I think any time you have a one-of-a-kind dog to love, you just focus on working with the individual set of symptoms to give them their best life.

I see what you're saying about potty training. Wish I knew what to suggest. LOL All I can say is welcome to the world of "Not sure what's going on with this dog." It's a common situation with spinal conditions. And for people who have dogs that are either recovering/improving or have a progressive degenerative condition, the status quo can change. So you do your best to figure out what you are dealing with, and in the back of your mind you monitor for change. All I can think is, either it's potty training like you say, or he actually does have some urine in his bladder and the vet missed it, or there is a spinal issue closer to the tail that was missed. Potty training sounds worth a try. If you figure out why he is leaking or making puddles, I hope you will post what you learned. It is interesting that he will sometimes void after you remove the diaper, almost as if he waited on purpose.

I've actually had a very good vet miss a full bladder on the examining table after my dog went 28 hours without urinating following surgery, so I know it can happen. The main way a full bladder might be missed is that you cannot feel the outline of the bladder when it is really full. All you feel is a tight abdomen because it fills the abdomen. You can feel the outline when it is half full, and you can feel it when it is empty if you fish around, but if your have a very full bladder, the outline is not distinguishable inside the abdomen because it fills the abdomen. And a dog with an upper motor neuron injury can be hard or even very hard to express because of excess tone, so you squeeze and nothing comes out and you think they must be empty. (They have medication for excess tone if needed.) Such a dog may void by overflow, but the bladder does not get really empty and you can end up with a UTI from a little bit of stale urine always remaining in the bladder, or crystals/stones from sediment/sludge remaining because the dog never fully empties. But it seems like if your dog is 5 months old, he's probably not retaining urine or surely you would have seen an infection by now...I would think... Just my 2cents, not a vet.

I can't see what kind of saddle is on his cart in his photo. I thought the leg rings had neoprene sleeves to make them comfortable. I remember one person who felt her dog was getting a neoprene rash, but that was the only time I've heard of that. You might maybe ask Nancy at Walkin' Wheels (fitting specialist) what she would suggest? nancy@hpets.net

If he wants to turn around quickly he launches himself with two powerful hops of his front legs

Yes! I know what you mean and that's a good description!

The thing about him taking off on his front legs when you raised his rear is exactly what my golden retriever, Merlin, used to do, powering forward like a sled dog with ME as the sled. It's fun to see him really move and enjoy himself with puppy enthusiasm, but I would say you might want to nip that in the bud, only because theoretically his exuberance could injure you someday. I know Merlie didn't do me any good all the times he did that. I'm sorry, I don't want to sound like a bummer, but you don't have much choice about protecting yourself... With Merlin, I felt like whatever weight I was normally lifting when I boosted his rear, I needed to effectively add another 20 lbs, because of the added pull of him running the Iditarod with me holding his belly harness and being dragged behind.

For what it's worth, I did some more searching to see if I could find any mention whatsoever of Great Pyrenees with hemivertebrae, and I still do not. You have to search 'Pyrenean' to capture European results, but I think I covered that, too. I see hemivertebrae for the "screw tail" breeds such as pugs, bulldogs, and Boston terriers. It has also been reported as autosomal recessive in German shorthair pointers and German shepherds, and I found a report of it in a Doberman.

I am not sure why there are no reports of it in Great Pyrenees. I can think of some commonsense reasons why there might not be, but I really don't know. I still do not see a better explanation, as the x-rays look similar.

I've also searched the database of genetic breed predispositions to see if there was some other condition that causes spinal deformity in Great Pyrenees, and found nothing. It said they are susceptible to dermoid sinus, but he was x-rayed and apparently there is no evidence of that. It was a long shot, since that's what my dog had in her lower back and she's a 24/7 dribbler, and Great Pyrenees do have that on their list of possible genetic issues.

I found a medical thesis titled Congenital Thoracic Vertebral Malformations in Brachycephalic "Screw-Tailed" Dog Breeds. (It is 79 pages, big print and plenty of white space between the lines. 58-79 is the part to read.)

Some of the information might be useful in giving you things to be aware of, or things to watch for, or to know what is possible. He studied 28 dogs with thoracic vertebral malformations. 12 had neurological symptoms and the other 16 were normal.

Page 65 says

The most commonly affected vertebra was in the midthoracic region (T6-T9 region), confirming previous reports (Volta et al. 2005; Westworth & Sturges 2010; Moissonnier et al. 2011).The majority of dogs with neurological signs (75%) presented with a chronic and progressive history of ambulatory paraparesis and ataxia (Grade 2), which suggested slowly progressive spinal cord injury and/or compression, consistent with previous reports ( Aikawa et al. 2007; Jeffery et al. 2007; Westworth & Sturges 2010; Moissonnier et al.2011;).

NOTE: When I try to look at the photo of Milo's x-ray, I can't really make it out. I'm not a vet or radiologist or anything medical. I thought maybe I could figure out what level (in other words which exact vertebrae) the condition is at, such as T-7, but I can't. It may be in the radiology report, if they gave you one.

Pages 67-68

In two of the 12 cases with neurological deficits, it was found that the clinical signs were not a direct consequence of vertebral canal stenosiscaused by the vertebral column deformity, but rather secondary to another neurological disease that occurred concurrently. In both cases, the intervertebral discs adjacent to the vertebral malformation were the focus of spinal cord involvement(one dog with Hansen type I intervertebral disc herniation and the other dog with discospondylitis and secondary empyema). It is possible that intervertebral instability between the normal and malformed vertebrae could have resulted in damage to the intervertebral disc and predisposed it to herniation or infection. It has been indeed reported that congenital vertebral malformation results in early degeneration of adjacent intervertebral discs (Faller et al. 2014). Another study also reports the possible instability of the abnormal vertebral segment secondary to the vertebral malformations (Dewey et al. 2015).

That reminded me of something they used to call "junction disease" where, for example, vertebrae were fused, and it fixed the area that needed fusing, but then the disks either side of the fusion developed issues.

Pages 69-70

The finding that kyphosis is the main spinal deformity observed in this group of neurologically affected dogs and that a cut-off kyphotic angle exists around 35° supports the fact that the degree of kyphosis secondary to the vertebral malformations determine the likelihood of developing neurologic dysfunction.

The article talks about Cobb angles and neurological status. I've never heard of them. A Cobb angle is a way to measure how much of a curve is in the spine. I am not sure I did it right, you might want to re-do it, but I took Milo's x-ray, and drew lines on it and then measured the angle with an online protractor. It looks like somewhere around 104°. Or I may have totally messed it up, never did this before. Don't think it's too far off because you might guesstimate about 90° just from looking at it.

Here is a graphic showing how to measure, and then my result. It is important, because some of the dogs in the study did not have neurological symptoms, but it indicated that if the angle is above 35° dogs may be more prone to neurological involvement.

Also, just want to say, I am sorry if you are giving up any sleep to answer messages here, when you have a farm to run and a lot to do. Much of this is just FYI and you may not have time to reply or comment, which would be understandable. I can only imagine what is involved in running a big operation. Please do to overextend yourself.

Since you were talking about how he is figuring out how to be mobile, I thought you might get a laugh out of this short video of Joanne's Carl playing with other dogs. The first time I watched it, I could not immediately tell which dog was paralyzed!

[Milo's Mom]

104 sounds about right, I just know it's a whole lot higher than the 35 maximum most articles mention. The neurologist showed me the view from the side. It was mind boggling. The spine took a sharp 90 degree turn from it's normal path, continued upward vertically, took a sharp U-turn at the top and returned to normal level right beside the upward segment. They didn't send a physical set of x-rays to my vet, just a link to their x-rays online, and he found their program difficult to use and hard to view clearly on a computer monitor. Next time I go in I will ask if he can request actual x-rays be mailed and if they included a report on their findings. It would be nice to get the neurologist's full diagnosis at least.

Don't worry about my answering in the middle of the night. I'm a night owl and usually relax at night by answering emails and sending notices to my puppy people. I warn the ones awaiting weekly pictures that they might want to turn off their notifications at night. It sometimes takes 5 or 6 hours to take puppy pictures, choose the best, edit them, and send out to their future owners. The actual send out is usually around 1 am.

I hesitate sometimes to mention I'm his breeder as the first disabled dog group I found on Facebook has rabid "adopt don't shop" people in it. I noticed that for every post of a disabled dog there were half a dozen people cursing breeders who don't care about their dogs and are only in it for the money. The first post of Milo was met with wholehearted support. The second post I explained that I am his breeder, health test my dogs, and his condition was congenital and not a screenable condition. I few people hit the Like button on that one, but no comments or advice and the woman who'd promised to send physical therapy instructions ghosted me. Amazing how many people think all breeders are backyard breeders and thus evil.

[CarolC]

I am beyond sorry to hear about the response on Facebook, on many levels. You seem like the last person who should have been treated that way. There are all kinds of things I could say, but I won't, but I'm thinking them. You are a wonderful dog mom who is caring for a large breed wheelchair puppy at 64, and the worst thing you're ever going to be guilty of regarding this dog is probably spoiling him rotten. And that's forgiveable!


Before I forget, I wanted to say, I do not think the engine hoist is the best choice for long term lifting. It worked for my declining senior dog for 8 months, but it was quite inconvenient to maneuver indoors. Even though I have not tried any of the other lifts, I suspect one of the medical lifts would be a better choice, because you are going to need to approach your dog wherever he is. In my experience, the dog may collapse or lie down or scoot to various places, and you must bring the lift to him OR you are going to have to get him onto his feet yourself physically, and that's what you don't want to do (over and over, it adds up). So you need a lift that you can get over there where he is, and not something that is so big and heavy you hesitate to push it over there.

This is the only problem I see with the doorway lift (the Doggie Lift). Your dog needs to be in the doorway. Usually he won't be there.

Several people here have made rolling beds or rolling platforms to move their dog around, such as for Bully the bullmastiff, and Coach the rottweiler, and a wheeled stretcher for Mojo the lab. That's fine, but if your dog is lying on the floor, you still have to get him onto the platform, in order to roll it over to the doorway, in order to raise him and get him into his cart. Getting a 100 lb dog up onto even a low platform bed a couple of inches off the floor is still going to involve some lifting, and it will add up sooner than you think because you're doing it probably multiple times per day.

I was rereading some of the thoracic malformations thesis, and there are a few more key passages worth posting. Highlighting added. You know, you can download that whole document and save it. It's a pdf and they allow downloads. I saved a copy, it's like a roadmap for this condition, it's fantastic.

Page 43

Clinical signs of neurologic dysfunction in patients with thoracic vertebral malformations are consistent with the location of the malformation and thereby result in a T3-L3 myelopathy. A progressive, waxing and waning, ambulatory paraparesis with pelvic limb ataxiais often observed, and decompensation with an acute clinical deterioration may be seen. Some patients may present with an acute onset of non-ambulatory paraparesis, others may solely display hyperaesthesia in the area overlaying the spinal deformity (Dewey et al. 2015).

The way I read this, your dog might be walking OK for months or years and then suddenly go down without warning.

Page 64

When reviewing the age of the neurologically affected population, it appears that myelopathy secondary to vertebral malformations worsen at around 2 years of age (mean: 2.4y).The age at the time of clinical presentation is reported to be wide but dogs younger than a year old are reported to represent 60% of the population (Charalambous et al. 2014).The existence of a period of accelerated growth around 4-10 months of age (adolescence) has been suggested has a reason why these conditions, although present at birth are not clinically apparent until then (Westworth & Sturges 2010).

This seems to address something you wondered about earlier.

Page 70

The potential of progression of congenital vertebral anomalies is unknown in dogs but has been highlighted in human literature, with careful assessment and monitoring being essential and early intervention may be desirable. In this context, potential healthy young dogs with a kyphotic angle below, but close to, 35° may benefit from monitoring for the subsequent appearance of neurological deficits. Serial Cobb angle measurements in these patients would also allow objective determination of progression of vertebral angulationfacilitating early intervention. There is currently no supportive data to suggest any advantages for preventive stabilization with spinal surgery in dogs without neurological deficits; although early intervention may be warranted to prevent them.

He is suggesting taking periodic x-rays to see if the curvature is getting worse. But he's talking about dogs with milder curvature. Really, Milo has enough curvature already that I imagine you are just going to be monitoring by symptoms. At least you have a baseline established already.

I hope they will give you a copy of the imaging.

[Milo's Mom]

Thank you for the kind words. Milo's problem did become more apparent when he reached his 4 month growth spurt, and large dogs don't achieve their full growth and bulk until 2 years. We have a Walkin' Pets scooter for him that we haven't trained with yet as I want him completely comfortable with the wheelchair before introducing him to another contraption to learn. Now that his front legs are strong enough to stand while attaching the wheelchair, he may be ready for the scooter. It's possible that we could link two scooters together to make a rolling platform for his entire body later, though that would still be a couple inches high. By the time he hits the forty pound mark I think we'll need to implement some type of lifting device. Right now lifting forty pounds a couple inches isn't a big deal but I expect that to change rapidly as I age.

I did download that thesis. My vet loves it that I do research and discuss it with him; keeps him current on things that may not be seen regularly in his clinic or could use some review since what they taught in vet school. I've had too many vets in the past who thought they knew everything and dismissed my input. A veterinarian who listens and is a partner in your pet's welfare is worth his weight in gold.

[Milo's Mom]

Yay! Milo does not need to be potty trained. We had to make so many adjustments to the wheelchair to allow for his hump and his constant growth, that sometimes the leg supports put pressure on his penis and he was uncomfortable to the point of immobility. He responded better when wearing a diaper and belly band, so we'd continued to do that. I realized today he's grown to the point that there is no pressure on his penis or bladder, so put him in the chair tonight naked. He gleefully peed all over the kitchen (and on me as I put him in the chair). He also waited until I'd clean up a puddle, then deposit a poop ball. I think he thought it was funny I was crawling around chasing him with a roll of paper towels. We'll try a puppy pad under him while holding the chair still.

[CarolC]

You solved the mystery! That is fantastic! Woohoo! Happy dance!! He's got voluntary control (and a sense of humor). I can just picture it. Bless his heart, you've got a dog with bowel and bladder control. That is the best news!

I haven't seen an attachable pee-catcher, but one of the wheelchair companies used to make a bag at the rear called a Catch It All. Don't know if it would work on a Walkin' Wheels, it might. Ideally I think I would put a plastic liner in it, like a grocery bag or small wastebasket liner.

https://k9carts.com/catch-it-all/

Is it possible he might just pee into a bucket? For a treat? Save on pads? Dunno, but that is so cool!

Yay! Milo!

[CarolC]

This is a double post, but I think I may have given a suggestion earlier that is not appropriate for your dog, and I'm very sorry. I'm not sure, but here is what I was looking at this morning.

I found a German website about hemivertebrae in bulldogs. (It's in English.) They have a graphic with hemivertebrae showing something called 'kissing spine' where the little bones that stick out above the vertebrae (spinous processes, 2 arrows at the top) are touching. I've never heard of it. Apparently it can cause discomfort in horses. You may already know a lot about it since you know horses. On the bulldog it is not near the hemivertebrae (which is lumbar), do not know if it was related.

Anyway, I tried to look at the photo of Milo's x-ray, and I think maybe I see that in one location, which is marked in yellow. What do you think? (Click to enlarge)

So I'm thinking, if you lift a dog like this to his feet using a rear harness, or a belly harness or belly band with strap handles (like I used for my dog without hemivertebrae) it is going to put exaggerated lift on the far rear end and probably additional flex/pressure on the junction where his normal spine meets his curvature. It might pinch those spinous processes together and be uncomfortable. So I'm thinking with a dog like this you would want a harness that simultaneously supports the midsection, not just the rear. I'm thinking (?) it may not be a good idea to lift him only from the rear end, but I don't know. Right now you are able to lift his whole body, but soon you will be lifting the hindquarters.

Years ago there used to be a European harness with dowel rods along the sides to give maximum stability. I'll see if I can find it. I'll be surprised if they still make it.

Something I found helpful with one dog is to consistently give a verbal cue when lifting or picking up, such as "Up" or "Up-up-up" or "One-two-three" so the dog knows what's about to happen and can brace to whatever extent possible. I'm not sure, but it seems like commonsense that he can probably brace and stabilize that area using his muscles to reduce the motion in it during a lift, if he knows it's coming. It might be something to think about or ask about.

Incidentally, the website also lists some addtional breeds.

In individual case reports, hemivertebrae have also been described in other breeds of dogs (e.g., Rottweiler, West Highland White Terrier, Fox Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, Beagle, German Shorthair).

A day or two ago I saw something I could not find again, so I can't give you the link. It was the Merck veterinary website talking about some kind of genetic condition in dogs (not hemivertebrae, maybe not even spinal, just something I randomly stumbled across) and it referred to one case as "isolated". In other words, it does not really occur in the breed but there was an isolated case of whatever-it-was in this one dog. So that might apply to Milo, an isolated case of hemivertebrae (if that's what this is).

[Milo's Mom]

That does look like the tips could be kissing. Hoping I can get clearer x-rays to go over with my vet. At the moment he doesn't look like he's experiencing pain when I lift his rear, only fearful that he'll tip on his face. With the acute angle of his thoracic vertebrae, I have wondered if there will come a time when flexion in the lower part of the spine would cause pain in the upper spine. For now I think I'll use a "kid sling" that I bought for baby goats. When you carry newborns in from the pasture, mama goats freak out if their baby is above their eye level and will run back to the pasture searching for their baby. The sling carries the baby goat close enough to the ground that mama sees them and follows. For the size of Milo's midsection now, the sling is perfect for lifting with support under his belly.

[CarolC]

Too cute! I didn't know that about goats.

It's like a Munk's dog packer with longer handles so you don't have to bend over so far.

updated link http://www.munksmanufacturing.com/canine.html

[critters]

Wow, y'all have been busy! I don't have time to read all these today, but I'm planning to be online tomorrow and will try to catch up then.

[critters]

I am not sure why there are no reports of it in Great Pyrenees. I can think of some commonsense reasons why there might not be, but I really don't know. I still do not see a better explanation, as the x-rays look similar. There can always be the first one. My monsters have had any number of "impossible" problems, diseases, etc.