Hi All,
Like so many of you, I never expected to need the use of this site (I actually haven't been a member of a forum since I was 13 - that was almost 20 years ago!). Well, here I am, looking for ANY comfort, advice, inspiration, etc.
Our story: my frenchie (Natick) is a sweet girl of 4 years, totally goofy and fun loving, but very athletic and trim. Had an IVDD incident out of the blue one evening while I was visiting my parents in CT (I live in NYC). We didn't know what it was - I had actually never heard of IVDD and didn't realize frenchies were so susceptible to it. We got her to the vet in the morning and she could still hobble a bit, and had a lot of pain when you touched near her hip. Vet sent us to the ER; she was evaluated by a neurologist that afternoon who saw that she still had deep pain and could stand a bit, so he thought that surgery the next morning would be successful. Unfortunately, in the morning she had lost deep pain sensation and the MRI revealed a lot of bruising on the spinal cord that surgery would not be able to fix, even if the compression from two discs was removed. The neurologist said he could go either way on it, but ultimately the spinal cord needed to heal that bruising regardless of what he did. We went ahead with the surgery. We are now 10 days post-op and Natick still has no pain sensation, no movement in the back legs, nothing. She is reasonably comfortable, and has her first follow-up for staple removal on Saturday.
I'm a mess right now. Her care, as you all know, has been an undertaking. She has had diarrhea since she came out of surgery that still has yet to resolve. She is on a couple of meds for it, but it makes the whole recovery period and imagining a life together a total nightmare. We get into a rhythm and I think "I can do this" and then an hour later she and all the pads are covered in poop. We've been on a bland diet for a few days; it hasn't helped. I'm at my wit's end (thankfully, bladder expression hasn't been too bad).
I'm just so worried that I can't do this. I'm single (so no partner to help) and work as a teacher in the city (so no working from home - I'll have to be gone every day for that). I have hired someone who is going to express her bladder once a day around lunch time while I'm at work, but the whole lifestyle change seems impossible to fathom right now.
Anyway, just here to vent and soak in the wisdom accumulated from others. Sorry to bring another downer story into the world!
C
Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
Hi frenchiepup,
It sounds like you made a good decision on the surgery. I would not worry too much about the deep pain sensation at this point. It can come back weeks or months later if it is not present right away. Also, it can be tricky to test for deep pain sensation, depending on how stoic the dog is, but a neurologist should know the signs. My dog had no deep pain sensation in her feet until nearly 5 months after her injury. They determined she had deep pain at 149 days. I do not mean it will take your dog that long, I only mean that not having it right away doesn't mean it won't come back.
The diarrhea is an unusual thing for dogs who have just had IVDD surgery. (You're probably thinking, "Lucky me!"
) It's a real pain when any down dog has diarrhea. My first question would be, what medication is she on? If she is on any kind of steroids, they strongly recommend giving a stomach protectant while the dog is on steroids. Pepcid ac (famotidine) is a common one. Sucralfate is another. (I am not a vet.) Here is some information. Your vet could tell you the right dose for your dog.
https://dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stom ... /%E2%80%8B
It sounds like you'd be in good shape except for the diarrhea. Something else you can do, assuming she is on meds, is look each one up. An easy way to do that is to google 'marvistavet' and the name of the med, or 'VCA' and the name and the med. For example, "marvistavet prednisone" will give you a lot of information on prednisone. Each website has information about veterinary medications and their side effects. Perhaps you could identify a possible med that might be contributing to the diarrhea, because that really isn't a routine complaint after IVDD surgery. You have my sympathy on that one! You must be doing a lot of bathing, and being careful about the incision, not to mention laundry, so what a pain for you and your pup!
That is really good that you were able to find someone to express her at lunchtime. They say the bladder should be expressed every 8 hours. If you are simply gone 9 hours, you might be able to express her right before you leave and right when you come home and be OK. The important thing is, you would want to be expressing completely so she is really empty. Expressing is something you get better at with practice, and some dogs are easier to express than others, so you kind of have to judge where you are on that scale. Another consideration is her comfort. If she leaks, expressing at lunch may be your only option, it depends on the dog. Some dogs can make it a certain number of hours before they leak, and she may not be able to make it for the amount of time you are gone.
If she does not leak, then you want to be sure she isn't getting uncomfortably full, which could happen if she is on prednisone or some medication that makes her drink extra water. But I finally decided for my own situation that if a dog is normally able to "hold it" for 9 hours while I am at work, then s/he could probably still do so, provided I am really getting the bladder empty before and after I work. It's a judgment call, something to consider. If it's no problem to have someone coming in, then continuing that is a nice option. I did not routinely wait 9 hours, I was able to go home at lunch, but there were times when I couldn't get home, such as when I was called for jury duty or had to attend a conference downtown, and we survived those occasions without the lunchtime express.
I have a dog right now recovering from tetraplegia. Usually he can make it 8 hours overnight and wake up dry, but then about once a week he will wet the blanket. In my experience, some ways of handling this are better than others. Right now you may be using disposable underpads or puppy pads for the diarrhea. That's understandable if you are, because of the piles of laundry you'd have otherwise.
When the diarrhea is gone, then the best way to prevent a dog lying in urine (if leaking between expresses is an issue) is either a diaper, or to use a pass-through method. Puppy pads are not good for normal post-surgery incontinence because they are not absorbent enough. A dog lying on a wet disposable pad is a wet dog, and that can lead to skin breakdown very quickly. The same is true of the quilted washable pads you use for humans. They are more absorbent, but the top layer will still be wet and your dog will be lying on wetness. That is why pass-through is better.
There are several ways to do it. One is a mesh bed. I've never tried one but some people really like them. I would think that would be better for a dog who is unlikely to drag herself off of it, such as maybe an older dog. Another idea is whelping pads, which are kind of a washable sheepskin where the urine passes through and is absorbed in a disposable puppy pad underneath the sheepskin. Another option, that is working with my current dog when he wets during the night (he is 8.5 lbs), is a "high pile" blanket with a washable baby crib pad underneath. I find that when he wets, there is a yellow spot an inch or so in diameter on the thick plush blanket, and a large puddle sized wet spot 9"-12" in diameter on the crib pad underneath, so it's working and going down through and he isn't lying in it, yay! Here is an example of the kind of dense plush I'm talking about. It's really thick compared to something like fleece.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YeUAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
You are still in very early days. The swelling from the surgery probably hasn't even gone down yet. Better days are coming. I hope you can solve the diarrhea very soon!
It sounds like you made a good decision on the surgery. I would not worry too much about the deep pain sensation at this point. It can come back weeks or months later if it is not present right away. Also, it can be tricky to test for deep pain sensation, depending on how stoic the dog is, but a neurologist should know the signs. My dog had no deep pain sensation in her feet until nearly 5 months after her injury. They determined she had deep pain at 149 days. I do not mean it will take your dog that long, I only mean that not having it right away doesn't mean it won't come back.
The diarrhea is an unusual thing for dogs who have just had IVDD surgery. (You're probably thinking, "Lucky me!"
) It's a real pain when any down dog has diarrhea. My first question would be, what medication is she on? If she is on any kind of steroids, they strongly recommend giving a stomach protectant while the dog is on steroids. Pepcid ac (famotidine) is a common one. Sucralfate is another. (I am not a vet.) Here is some information. Your vet could tell you the right dose for your dog.https://dodgerslist.com/2020/05/06/stom ... /%E2%80%8B
It sounds like you'd be in good shape except for the diarrhea. Something else you can do, assuming she is on meds, is look each one up. An easy way to do that is to google 'marvistavet' and the name of the med, or 'VCA' and the name and the med. For example, "marvistavet prednisone" will give you a lot of information on prednisone. Each website has information about veterinary medications and their side effects. Perhaps you could identify a possible med that might be contributing to the diarrhea, because that really isn't a routine complaint after IVDD surgery. You have my sympathy on that one! You must be doing a lot of bathing, and being careful about the incision, not to mention laundry, so what a pain for you and your pup!
That is really good that you were able to find someone to express her at lunchtime. They say the bladder should be expressed every 8 hours. If you are simply gone 9 hours, you might be able to express her right before you leave and right when you come home and be OK. The important thing is, you would want to be expressing completely so she is really empty. Expressing is something you get better at with practice, and some dogs are easier to express than others, so you kind of have to judge where you are on that scale. Another consideration is her comfort. If she leaks, expressing at lunch may be your only option, it depends on the dog. Some dogs can make it a certain number of hours before they leak, and she may not be able to make it for the amount of time you are gone.
If she does not leak, then you want to be sure she isn't getting uncomfortably full, which could happen if she is on prednisone or some medication that makes her drink extra water. But I finally decided for my own situation that if a dog is normally able to "hold it" for 9 hours while I am at work, then s/he could probably still do so, provided I am really getting the bladder empty before and after I work. It's a judgment call, something to consider. If it's no problem to have someone coming in, then continuing that is a nice option. I did not routinely wait 9 hours, I was able to go home at lunch, but there were times when I couldn't get home, such as when I was called for jury duty or had to attend a conference downtown, and we survived those occasions without the lunchtime express.
I have a dog right now recovering from tetraplegia. Usually he can make it 8 hours overnight and wake up dry, but then about once a week he will wet the blanket. In my experience, some ways of handling this are better than others. Right now you may be using disposable underpads or puppy pads for the diarrhea. That's understandable if you are, because of the piles of laundry you'd have otherwise.
When the diarrhea is gone, then the best way to prevent a dog lying in urine (if leaking between expresses is an issue) is either a diaper, or to use a pass-through method. Puppy pads are not good for normal post-surgery incontinence because they are not absorbent enough. A dog lying on a wet disposable pad is a wet dog, and that can lead to skin breakdown very quickly. The same is true of the quilted washable pads you use for humans. They are more absorbent, but the top layer will still be wet and your dog will be lying on wetness. That is why pass-through is better.
There are several ways to do it. One is a mesh bed. I've never tried one but some people really like them. I would think that would be better for a dog who is unlikely to drag herself off of it, such as maybe an older dog. Another idea is whelping pads, which are kind of a washable sheepskin where the urine passes through and is absorbed in a disposable puppy pad underneath the sheepskin. Another option, that is working with my current dog when he wets during the night (he is 8.5 lbs), is a "high pile" blanket with a washable baby crib pad underneath. I find that when he wets, there is a yellow spot an inch or so in diameter on the thick plush blanket, and a large puddle sized wet spot 9"-12" in diameter on the crib pad underneath, so it's working and going down through and he isn't lying in it, yay! Here is an example of the kind of dense plush I'm talking about. It's really thick compared to something like fleece.
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/YeUAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg
You are still in very early days. The swelling from the surgery probably hasn't even gone down yet. Better days are coming. I hope you can solve the diarrhea very soon!
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
You might consider trying adding fiber to her diet to help absorb water in her colon. Has the vet suggested anything to actively stop the diarrhea? Yeah, diarrhea in somebody who can't move is a real bummer!-
frenchiepup
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:00 pm
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
Thank you both! Appreciate your replies.
For meds, she’s on metronidazole and a probiotic (both for diarrhea), omeprazole, and gabapentin. No steroids. I’ve researched side effects on these and while diarrhea is possible with some of them, it doesn’t seem that it’s very common.
I put some pumpkin in her food last night. She had one poop accident about an hour after she ate, and then another one in the morning. The poop is a bit more formed but still soft and gooshy, and prone to causing a mess. Sigh… baby steps. I will speak to the vet about it at her follow up on Saturday, and if it persists bring her to her regular vet in nyc.
Thanks for the information about urine and bedding. As of right now, I have not observed any dribbling (thank goodness!). But I am a bit more “on top of” everything right now as I haven’t started work yet. That’s good to know though about bedding options that keep urine off the skin.
For now, I’ll have someone come daily around noon to express her once work starts. It wasn’t too hard to find someone in New York, though it is expensive. If it looks like we are pretty well controlled I might drop it on the days that I don’t anticipate being late at work. But for now it will give me peace of mind - especially if I get held up at school (or maybe even want to get a drink or five after! Lol).
Thanks for the encouragement. I’ll definitely need more of it as we go forward. If we can just get the diarrhea under control, that will be a HUGE start…
For meds, she’s on metronidazole and a probiotic (both for diarrhea), omeprazole, and gabapentin. No steroids. I’ve researched side effects on these and while diarrhea is possible with some of them, it doesn’t seem that it’s very common.
I put some pumpkin in her food last night. She had one poop accident about an hour after she ate, and then another one in the morning. The poop is a bit more formed but still soft and gooshy, and prone to causing a mess. Sigh… baby steps. I will speak to the vet about it at her follow up on Saturday, and if it persists bring her to her regular vet in nyc.
Thanks for the information about urine and bedding. As of right now, I have not observed any dribbling (thank goodness!). But I am a bit more “on top of” everything right now as I haven’t started work yet. That’s good to know though about bedding options that keep urine off the skin.
For now, I’ll have someone come daily around noon to express her once work starts. It wasn’t too hard to find someone in New York, though it is expensive. If it looks like we are pretty well controlled I might drop it on the days that I don’t anticipate being late at work. But for now it will give me peace of mind - especially if I get held up at school (or maybe even want to get a drink or five after! Lol).
Thanks for the encouragement. I’ll definitely need more of it as we go forward. If we can just get the diarrhea under control, that will be a HUGE start…
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
Glad the pumpkin has improved it to some degree. That is another thing that helps...noticing the timing of the doodles. There is something called the gastro-colic reflex where dogs need to go number two after a meal. Knowing her timing means you can at least be mentally prepared and have wipes handy for a quick clean-up.
With my one dog, we were in a two-story house and sleeping upstairs, and in the morning I'd be in my work clothes and would not really want to carry a bundle of wet doggie blankets down to the washer. I ended up buying a (bright, jazzy
) laundry bag specially for doggie laundry, and I put her bedding in that and carried it down the stairs. We also have a separate laundry basket for doggie bedding and towels that are not very soiled. I remember someone here said "The washer never stops at our house." I can't quite say that, but it does run every day!
I never know what situation different people live in, for example whether they have a washer and dryer in the home, or use a communal one at the complex, or go to a laundromat. I never know if they have a garbage can a few steps from the back door, or have to walk down 4 flights to a dumpster. Even if you have every convenience, I hope the poop texture continues to improve.
I know you said you have her on a bland diet (and now have added pumpkin). Hopefully the diarrhea is soon gone. I've had 3 dogs now with paralysis that is longer term and I've had really good luck with Science Diet w/d dry kibble. (We tried the canned version and did not get the same results.) With w/d dry kibble, the stools are well formed, low odor, and not sticky. If a stool rolls under the hip, it does not get gummed up in the fur (fortunately you have a short-haired dog). It also does not stain the bedding. If you still aren't happy with the results after trying the bland diet for a few days, that might be another option.
The dog I adopted recently came on a raw diet. Raw diet has its own inconveniences, such as taking up a lot of space in the freezer, needing to be thawed, and being expensive. But it does produce minimal stools because apparently the dog's system absorbs pretty much all of it. What passes through must be the specks of ground bone maybe? Don't know, not an expert on raw diet. This dog is on Stella and Chewy's frozen raw chicken and his stools are very small (peach pits) and dry and infrequent, like twice a day and hardly anything. They never stain the bedding, though the "crumbs'" can sometimes cling to the crib pad (fleecy) bedding and have to be brushed off.
I don't know. Different people have found different types of food that produce outstanding poop texture. It kind of depends on your philosophy about dog food (opinions vary) and your individual dog's system.
I found this info on gabapentin. Personally I can't say I enjoy having to give an assortment of meds at different times. This one 2x a day, that one 3x a day, this other one an hour before that other one, etc. It can be bewildering. I have a dog (Dolly) who was on 4 meds for a while and I was having to write it down just to keep it straight, and I'm home all day! Anyway, these links make it look like the Prilosec (omeprazole) is better not given at the same time as gabapentin. I don't know how important that is, or whether your vet may have already addressed it.
One tip that may help a little is, if you are present when she goes, quick drop several layers of kleenex over it and that will help with odor right away. You may go through a lot of kleenex, but I feel it's worth it. Another tiny tip you've probably already figured out is, if you are using disposable puppy pads, bundling the wipes and paper towels etc. inside the disposable pad and rolling it up helps somewhat on odor, too, and makes a neater handful to carry when you have to go throw it away. Another thing I like to do is buy paper lunch sacks and bundle up all our kleenex and put it in the "doggy bag" and take it out to the trash. The white bags especially seem to make an icky job nicer and can sit at the ready next to the bed and next to the Kleenex box.https://www.fourpawsdublin.com/how-to-house-train-your-dog.pml wrote: Shortly after eating, dogs will experience a natural reflex called the gastro-colic reflex. Simply put, eating will trigger the urge to urinate/defecate, so plan for training time immediately after meals.
With my one dog, we were in a two-story house and sleeping upstairs, and in the morning I'd be in my work clothes and would not really want to carry a bundle of wet doggie blankets down to the washer. I ended up buying a (bright, jazzy
) laundry bag specially for doggie laundry, and I put her bedding in that and carried it down the stairs. We also have a separate laundry basket for doggie bedding and towels that are not very soiled. I remember someone here said "The washer never stops at our house." I can't quite say that, but it does run every day! I never know what situation different people live in, for example whether they have a washer and dryer in the home, or use a communal one at the complex, or go to a laundromat. I never know if they have a garbage can a few steps from the back door, or have to walk down 4 flights to a dumpster. Even if you have every convenience, I hope the poop texture continues to improve.
I know you said you have her on a bland diet (and now have added pumpkin). Hopefully the diarrhea is soon gone. I've had 3 dogs now with paralysis that is longer term and I've had really good luck with Science Diet w/d dry kibble. (We tried the canned version and did not get the same results.) With w/d dry kibble, the stools are well formed, low odor, and not sticky. If a stool rolls under the hip, it does not get gummed up in the fur (fortunately you have a short-haired dog). It also does not stain the bedding. If you still aren't happy with the results after trying the bland diet for a few days, that might be another option.
The dog I adopted recently came on a raw diet. Raw diet has its own inconveniences, such as taking up a lot of space in the freezer, needing to be thawed, and being expensive. But it does produce minimal stools because apparently the dog's system absorbs pretty much all of it. What passes through must be the specks of ground bone maybe? Don't know, not an expert on raw diet. This dog is on Stella and Chewy's frozen raw chicken and his stools are very small (peach pits) and dry and infrequent, like twice a day and hardly anything. They never stain the bedding, though the "crumbs'" can sometimes cling to the crib pad (fleecy) bedding and have to be brushed off.
I don't know. Different people have found different types of food that produce outstanding poop texture. It kind of depends on your philosophy about dog food (opinions vary) and your individual dog's system.
I found this info on gabapentin. Personally I can't say I enjoy having to give an assortment of meds at different times. This one 2x a day, that one 3x a day, this other one an hour before that other one, etc. It can be bewildering. I have a dog (Dolly) who was on 4 meds for a while and I was having to write it down just to keep it straight, and I'm home all day! Anyway, these links make it look like the Prilosec (omeprazole) is better not given at the same time as gabapentin. I don't know how important that is, or whether your vet may have already addressed it.
https://www.petmd.com/pet-medication/gabapentin wrote: Antacids can have an effect on Gabapentin levels, therefore, do not give antacids within two hours of giving Gabapentin.
https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/gabapentin wrote: The following medications should be used with caution when given with gabapentin: antacids, hydrocodone, or morphine
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/health/gabapentin-for-dogs-what-you-should-know/ wrote: * Wait before giving gabapentin after antacids. If you regularly give your dog an antacid like Pepcid or Prilosec, you must wait at least two hours after giving the antacid before giving gabapentin, as the antacid decreases absorption of gabapentin from the stomach.
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frenchiepup
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:00 pm
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
Thanks Carol. I actually was looking at Science diet, we might try it. Im not familiar with low residue diets in general. Natick used to be on a Vegan diet, but I’ll try whatever diet will make our lives easier!!
We have a communal laundry shared with the building. It’s free a lot of the time, so hopefully that will work out fine. I’m a few floors up so was thinking of getting an incontinence trash can for the disposable waste.
I’m hoping I’ll have more insight on her schedule (pooping as it pertains to feeding, etc.) soon, after the diarrhea and loose stools calm down. I’ll feel so much better about everything once that happens.
I do have roommates who may be able to help me. I feel bad asking them for too much, though. It will be tricky to find a balance of what is appropriate to ask. They do love her, though.
Will keep that in mind for the meds - thankfully I don’t think I’ve observed much, if any, signs of pain. She seems anxious to start doing things more than anything else.
Thanks again, appreciate it!
We have a communal laundry shared with the building. It’s free a lot of the time, so hopefully that will work out fine. I’m a few floors up so was thinking of getting an incontinence trash can for the disposable waste.
I’m hoping I’ll have more insight on her schedule (pooping as it pertains to feeding, etc.) soon, after the diarrhea and loose stools calm down. I’ll feel so much better about everything once that happens.
I do have roommates who may be able to help me. I feel bad asking them for too much, though. It will be tricky to find a balance of what is appropriate to ask. They do love her, though.
Will keep that in mind for the meds - thankfully I don’t think I’ve observed much, if any, signs of pain. She seems anxious to start doing things more than anything else.
Thanks again, appreciate it!
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
The w/d has to be prescribed by the vet. The Hill's company guarantees to take it back for any reason if you don't like it. My vet prefers to give out a free trial baggie, where they fill a ziploc bag and send you home with it at no cost to try with your pet before you buy a whole 8.5- or 17-lb bag. Maybe your vet will give a trial baggie. I think it's very nice that they let you return a $35 bag that doesn't work out, but I don't like the idea of wasting pet food if they throw the rest out, so the trial baggie is better.
Here is a video I did of one of my incontinent dogs. It is a little graphic (shows the dog eliminating) and my video skills were not the greatest. The point was to show how when the fresh stools land on the clean potty pad, they are not leaving a trace. You can imagine if that was your dog's bed, or the carpet.
If your dog's stools were fine before she had surgery (when you picked them up in a doggie waste bag on a walk) then maybe they will be fine once whatever is causing the diarrhea is resolved. Then you won't have to make any changes. That would be really nice.https://www.hillsvet.com/faq wrote: All Hill's® pet foods are marked with our guarantee. If you are not satisfied with Science Diet® and Ideal Balance™ pet food products for any reason, simply return the unused portion to the place of purchase for a refund or replacement.
Here is a video I did of one of my incontinent dogs. It is a little graphic (shows the dog eliminating) and my video skills were not the greatest. The point was to show how when the fresh stools land on the clean potty pad, they are not leaving a trace. You can imagine if that was your dog's bed, or the carpet.
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frenchiepup
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:00 pm
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
That’s great, Carol. Thank you. I sent a note to the vet today, we’ll see what he says. She had another case of diarrhea this afternoon. Two steps forward one step back?
Actually, the first day we expressed Natick she had a great stool, which I was surprised about because she had an extended stay at the hospital after the surgery (related to some bizarre bruising which resolved) and I was told that she had diarrhea during that whole stretch. We ended up doing the chicken and rice because she wasn’t eating, and then the diarrhea started up again. So I’m not quite sure what’s going on.
She’s never had *great* stools, but most of the time they are fine. About once a week she would have a gross one, mush. Since it wasn’t all the time we didn’t investigate too much. Now I’m wishing we had.
Your posts are very helpful in thinking about management long term, however - I just hope we can get over this hump!
Actually, the first day we expressed Natick she had a great stool, which I was surprised about because she had an extended stay at the hospital after the surgery (related to some bizarre bruising which resolved) and I was told that she had diarrhea during that whole stretch. We ended up doing the chicken and rice because she wasn’t eating, and then the diarrhea started up again. So I’m not quite sure what’s going on.
She’s never had *great* stools, but most of the time they are fine. About once a week she would have a gross one, mush. Since it wasn’t all the time we didn’t investigate too much. Now I’m wishing we had.
Your posts are very helpful in thinking about management long term, however - I just hope we can get over this hump!
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
I don't think most people would investigate something like that. I'd probably just assume my roommate was sneaking her french fries or something and shrug it off, especially when she's fine the next day.frenchiepup wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:15 pm Since it wasn’t all the time we didn’t investigate too much. Now I’m wishing we had.
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frenchiepup
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2021 3:00 pm
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
Natick is finally having good poops again! My dad has her for two days and he tried some sensitive diet food for her. Cleared up the issue right away. She’s been doing it on her own during bladder expressions - no stimulation required! So, that’s the good news.
New development: She has a large patch of dead skin on her chest that is about to fall off. Underneath it the skin is raw or even has patches with no skin at all (open wound). My friend who is a veterinary surgeon thinks it is a thermal burn from a cautery pad. It was just a leathery patch of skin two days ago, got worse yesterday and I called the surgeon. She’ll be seen later today… poor pup!
New development: She has a large patch of dead skin on her chest that is about to fall off. Underneath it the skin is raw or even has patches with no skin at all (open wound). My friend who is a veterinary surgeon thinks it is a thermal burn from a cautery pad. It was just a leathery patch of skin two days ago, got worse yesterday and I called the surgeon. She’ll be seen later today… poor pup!
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
This is the first time I've heard of a possible thermal burn like that. 
Bless her heart, I hope it isn't in an area on her chest where she is normally lying on it. I hope it is superficial enough that they don't have to do surgery to close it.
I am really sorry to hear of this added complication. They should treat it at no charge (and it may be reportable to the state veterinary oversight board), but I know that isn't your main concern right now, you just want her to be OK.
There was a quadriplegic bull mastiff here who was being treated at a rehab center and had to be taken to emergency surgery for an perforated colon possibly caused by medication. I remember another dog who was left unattended in the hospital and somehow ate a theraband. I've had my own trusted vet give my senior dog back to me with raw weeping urine burns on his hips after being hospitalized on fluids for acute renal failure (without being catheterized).
That's really good news about the sensitive food working. I hope that means it was just a touch of colitis. Now if you can just get some good news about the skin issue...
EDIT TO ADD: Did they say what level the injury was, such as T12 or L2 or anything? I am interested that she is easy to express but not dribbling. It seems you have the best of both worlds.
Bless her heart, I hope it isn't in an area on her chest where she is normally lying on it. I hope it is superficial enough that they don't have to do surgery to close it. I am really sorry to hear of this added complication. They should treat it at no charge (and it may be reportable to the state veterinary oversight board), but I know that isn't your main concern right now, you just want her to be OK.
There was a quadriplegic bull mastiff here who was being treated at a rehab center and had to be taken to emergency surgery for an perforated colon possibly caused by medication. I remember another dog who was left unattended in the hospital and somehow ate a theraband. I've had my own trusted vet give my senior dog back to me with raw weeping urine burns on his hips after being hospitalized on fluids for acute renal failure (without being catheterized).
That's really good news about the sensitive food working. I hope that means it was just a touch of colitis. Now if you can just get some good news about the skin issue...
EDIT TO ADD: Did they say what level the injury was, such as T12 or L2 or anything? I am interested that she is easy to express but not dribbling. It seems you have the best of both worlds.
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
frenchiepup wrote: ↑Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:43 pm I’m hoping I’ll have more insight on her schedule (pooping as it pertains to feeding, etc.) soon, after the diarrhea and loose stools calm down.
https://handicappedpet.net/helppets/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18586 wrote: To know how long it takes for your dog to process food, feed a few small pieces of raw carrot or kernels of frozen corn. Veggies don't digest--watch for the BM with veggies and you'll know your pup's processing time
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frenchiepup
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Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
Well, she is getting some procedure done tomorrow morning, staying there tonight. I am not sure if it will be just a debridement then a dressing, or a true graft of skin, but she will be under anesthesia. She is with my father today, so he was the one who brought her in and spoke to the vet. Apparently, the vet kind of scoffed at the suggestion that it was an injury from the electrode/grounding pad during the surgery, but from speaking with my surgeon friend it does seem the most likely (while I'm willing to entertain the idea of a bed sore, this is two fairly large rectangular patches of skin that have completely come off within a week of leaving the hospital, and she's been repositioned regularly). They didn't discuss money at all when my dad dropped her off. I tried to call the hospital back after he left to get an answer about that, but could only connect with a client service representative who told me the neurology team would "call me explain everything in the morning." In any case, I do hope they cover the costs of treating this. But yes, I just want her to be on the mend.
Her injury was between L2/3 and L3/4. I think the expression is easy mainly because she's fairly thin. I always said that I got the "athletic model" frenchie. It still requires a lot of force from my hands, but it has basically worked every time without a problem. But I still have yet to observe any leakage. Fingers crossed that continues - her poop was normal again today which is a huge relief.
Her injury was between L2/3 and L3/4. I think the expression is easy mainly because she's fairly thin. I always said that I got the "athletic model" frenchie. It still requires a lot of force from my hands, but it has basically worked every time without a problem. But I still have yet to observe any leakage. Fingers crossed that continues - her poop was normal again today which is a huge relief.
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
OK, that explains it. L3 would be an upper motor neuron (UMN) bladder. I've had paralyzed dogs with both kinds, UMN and LMN. Between the two, UMN is preferable. It is wonderful to have a dog who doesn't dribble. I'd much rather express than diaper.
My one dog took so much pressure to express during the first months, it would take 20+ minutes to get it done. At the 5-month point she regained the ability to at least assist when I squeezed her and that makes things easier (she was VERY hard to express at first). I remember it took 23 minutes one Sunday morning, because I was hoping to go back to bed but by the time we were finally done I was pretty awake! Nobody told me there was medication (such as phenoxybenzamine) that could make expressing easier by relaxing the urinary sphincters. You may not need medication since you are not having trouble expressing, but it's nice to know it exists. And yes, it is wonderful to have a sleek, slender dog when expressing!
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/def ... &pid=11131
I am a bit stunned (not sure what the right word is) at the situation with the skin injury. Aside from a whole mental mix of kind of denial and building anger (this shouldn't happen, this was unnecessary, can't they even be nice about it?) my mind jumps to practical matters. Trying to be logical. I hope (?) they will find it's not too bad. I'm definitely not Pollyanna. I only say that because you mentioned she seemed eager to start being active, and you hadn't noticed many indications of pain. At the time I think it was a reference to possible pain related to the surgical site, but I guess it could apply equally to possible pain in a hidden skin injury nobody was aware of. Apparently she hasn't been reacting when you handled her or picked her up. So...maybe, hopefully (?) most of the area will be more OK than not (?) when they go to clean it. It's the not knowing that could make it hard to sleep.
I am sort of thinking out loud. I can't see exactly where on her chest it is and I have no experience with this, mostly questions. I'd be asking myself, "Will I be able to pick her up and handle her after they treat the area?" I assume, based on her size, you might normally carry her in kind of a football carry against your waist, your forearm under her chest and and your hand kind of on the front of her chest and neck. Will you still be able to do that? Will she need to wear a T-shirt? How do you handle a dog like this?
My other question would be, hopefully it isn't necessary, but if they do find an area they think should be grafted, where would they borrow the extra skin from? My concern would be, I have a dog recovering from IVDD surgery who is probably going to be lying down for a number of weeks, and I don't want her lying on an open wound where tissue was taken from a spot on her side, or worse her hip, to cover the burn. I am trying to visualize where they would take skin from.
Can't really take it from the abdomen, you are expressing. I guess maybe they could if they send her home with an indwelling catheter. They probably shouldn't take it from her rear in case she gets diarrhea. I would really want to know where they are proposing to take skin from. I'm sort of thinking they probably won't do a graft, but I really have no basis for saying so.
The only other thought I have is, if they are going to take a graft from one side or the other, which side is her favorite side to lie on? Maybe they can take from the side she does not like to lie on.
As far as that business of it being a pressure sore? What pressure sore is rectangular? Also, this is not a heavy dog and it's only been 10 days. I know you said you'd been repositioning her, so it is kind of insulting, implying you didn't give her good nursing care. But aside from that, even if you hadn't turned her every few hours, she is not a heavy dog. If she was on average bedding such as a dog bed or a nice blanket, and she's been kept dry (that part is important) then it is very unlikely she would get a pressure sore. Pressure sores are more likely to happen on a heavy dog, especially one that has muscle atrophy in the hindquarters so the bones stick out. If the hip bone is not well padded, and especially if the bedding is not kept dry, then you might see a pressure sore, but none of that applies to your situation.
I am so sorry you have this added complication. It's not something you can't deal with, but it is extra and I'm sorry you have to. This extra vet appointment may set off her colitis again, but at least now you know what food to give her. If they send her home on antibiotics, well, at least she is already on a probiotic, so I guess that's another good thing. I'm really hoping tomorrow will turn out to be a good appointment, and whoever you talk to is decent about the whole thing, and your dog is still her perky self when the anesthesia wears off and you bring her home.
You mentioned that you were in CT and might take her to NYC. I haven't heard the evening news, but they were still trying to get transportation and everything back up and running in NYC earlier today. Hopefully your NY vet was unaffected by all of it.
My one dog took so much pressure to express during the first months, it would take 20+ minutes to get it done. At the 5-month point she regained the ability to at least assist when I squeezed her and that makes things easier (she was VERY hard to express at first). I remember it took 23 minutes one Sunday morning, because I was hoping to go back to bed but by the time we were finally done I was pretty awake! Nobody told me there was medication (such as phenoxybenzamine) that could make expressing easier by relaxing the urinary sphincters. You may not need medication since you are not having trouble expressing, but it's nice to know it exists. And yes, it is wonderful to have a sleek, slender dog when expressing!
https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/def ... &pid=11131
I am a bit stunned (not sure what the right word is) at the situation with the skin injury. Aside from a whole mental mix of kind of denial and building anger (this shouldn't happen, this was unnecessary, can't they even be nice about it?) my mind jumps to practical matters. Trying to be logical. I hope (?) they will find it's not too bad. I'm definitely not Pollyanna. I only say that because you mentioned she seemed eager to start being active, and you hadn't noticed many indications of pain. At the time I think it was a reference to possible pain related to the surgical site, but I guess it could apply equally to possible pain in a hidden skin injury nobody was aware of. Apparently she hasn't been reacting when you handled her or picked her up. So...maybe, hopefully (?) most of the area will be more OK than not (?) when they go to clean it. It's the not knowing that could make it hard to sleep.
I am sort of thinking out loud. I can't see exactly where on her chest it is and I have no experience with this, mostly questions. I'd be asking myself, "Will I be able to pick her up and handle her after they treat the area?" I assume, based on her size, you might normally carry her in kind of a football carry against your waist, your forearm under her chest and and your hand kind of on the front of her chest and neck. Will you still be able to do that? Will she need to wear a T-shirt? How do you handle a dog like this?
My other question would be, hopefully it isn't necessary, but if they do find an area they think should be grafted, where would they borrow the extra skin from? My concern would be, I have a dog recovering from IVDD surgery who is probably going to be lying down for a number of weeks, and I don't want her lying on an open wound where tissue was taken from a spot on her side, or worse her hip, to cover the burn. I am trying to visualize where they would take skin from.
Can't really take it from the abdomen, you are expressing. I guess maybe they could if they send her home with an indwelling catheter. They probably shouldn't take it from her rear in case she gets diarrhea. I would really want to know where they are proposing to take skin from. I'm sort of thinking they probably won't do a graft, but I really have no basis for saying so. The only other thought I have is, if they are going to take a graft from one side or the other, which side is her favorite side to lie on? Maybe they can take from the side she does not like to lie on.
As far as that business of it being a pressure sore? What pressure sore is rectangular? Also, this is not a heavy dog and it's only been 10 days. I know you said you'd been repositioning her, so it is kind of insulting, implying you didn't give her good nursing care. But aside from that, even if you hadn't turned her every few hours, she is not a heavy dog. If she was on average bedding such as a dog bed or a nice blanket, and she's been kept dry (that part is important) then it is very unlikely she would get a pressure sore. Pressure sores are more likely to happen on a heavy dog, especially one that has muscle atrophy in the hindquarters so the bones stick out. If the hip bone is not well padded, and especially if the bedding is not kept dry, then you might see a pressure sore, but none of that applies to your situation.
I am so sorry you have this added complication. It's not something you can't deal with, but it is extra and I'm sorry you have to. This extra vet appointment may set off her colitis again, but at least now you know what food to give her. If they send her home on antibiotics, well, at least she is already on a probiotic, so I guess that's another good thing. I'm really hoping tomorrow will turn out to be a good appointment, and whoever you talk to is decent about the whole thing, and your dog is still her perky self when the anesthesia wears off and you bring her home.
You mentioned that you were in CT and might take her to NYC. I haven't heard the evening news, but they were still trying to get transportation and everything back up and running in NYC earlier today. Hopefully your NY vet was unaffected by all of it.
Re: Frenchie w/ Stage V IVDD, Post-Surgery
I'm with CarolC on the "what pressure sore is rectangular?" school of thought, especially if it's PERFECTLY rectangular. Personally, I'd consider going to a vet other than the one that may've caused it...