My dog slipped a disc today.

Neurological Disorders Resources. Treatment and care for pets having pain or trouble walking or standing due to spinal injuries or neurological disorders like IVDD, FCE and DM.
ssg
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by ssg »

Words alone cannot express how I feel for all of your support and words of encouragment. I truly appreciate each and every one of your helpful and most insiteful advice.

I just got off the phone with my husband who is still at the animal emergency center. They took x-rays which do not detect a slipped disc, but severe lumbar spondylosis from T-8 all the way down to the lumbar region. They are amazed he hadn't shown any difficulty walking up until two days ago.

So now I have to find out what this all means. How does this look as far as his prognosis? Is he treated the same way as a dog with a slipped disc? Should I be crating him, or does it not matter now? Can he now be allowed to move around as he chooses?

This vet is going to be sending me home with catheters, and told me to cath him every 4-6 hours while he's on steroids. She says I need sterile packages of #10 or #12 french catheters, and that I am not to reuse them. But I don't have a source for these. Do any of you have a source?

I will have to research this board to see what I am up against with lumbar spondylosis, which I am assuming is progressive to the point of paralysis.

Do you think I should go ahead and have a myelogram or CT scan just to rule out the possibility of a herniated disc, or not?

Thank you ao so very, very much.
Sandy
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CarolC
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by CarolC »

Hi Sandy,

That sounds like good progress. Good deal!! Whew! My dog is paralyzed from a spinal fracture, not spondylosis, so I don't know much about it, but that is the same thing Ivan had. Ivan was Toni's German shepherd cross who had spondylosis and arthritis. I will email Toni for you and see if she can give you some tips on this. Here is a picture of Ivan, and below that his webpage. Maybe it will give you some ideas until Toni can come along.

http://www.handicappedpets.com/gallery/ivan11/

Beth will know about the catheters, she did reuse hers. Let me go email Toni now. Congratulations on making some progress with the vet!!!!!
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BethT
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by BethT »

Sandy,

I cathetered my male dog Waffles from home for one year until I mastered expressing the bladder. I use a couple of different vets and both of them have said that it is impossible to NOT introduce some bacteria into the urethra even in the most sterile conditions. That not even the vets office is a totally sterile enviornment. That is why Waffles was on a preventative antibiotic for the entire year. I purchased my catheters from my vet. I do not know what number or kind they were but I did reuse them. They came packaged in a long white tube. I also purchase something called "cold sterile" from the vet. It is a powder that you mix with water. I would put this liquid in the tube full of catheters. Actually I had 2 tubes going so that I always took a catheter from the same tube and then would place the used one in the second tube so that it would have a chance to soak over night.

I'm not sure why they are making such a big deal out of it. Waffles went a full year being cathetered (and on a preventative antibiotic) before he had his first infection. Is your vet giving you a preventative antibiotic? Like Carol said there are a number of people here that have had to catheter their dogs. And I am talking male dogs, female dogs the lay person could not do at home.

I am happy to help you anyway that I can. Hang in there it does get better.
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BethT
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by BethT »

Sandy,

I cathetered my male dog Waffles from home for one year until I mastered expressing the bladder. I use a couple of different vets and both of them have said that it is impossible to NOT introduce some bacteria into the urethra even in the most sterile conditions. That not even the vets office is a totally sterile enviornment. That is why Waffles was on a preventative antibiotic for the entire year. I purchased my catheters from my vet. I do not know what number or kind they were but I did reuse them. They came packaged in a long white tube. I also purchase something called "cold sterile" from the vet. It is a powder that you mix with water. I would put this liquid in the tube full of catheters. Actually I had 2 tubes going so that I always took a catheter from the same tube and then would place the used one in the second tube so that it would have a chance to soak over night.

I'm not sure why they are making such a big deal out of it. Waffles went a full year being cathetered (and on a preventative antibiotic) before he had his first infection. Is your vet giving you a preventative antibiotic? Like Carol said there are a number of people here that have had to catheter their dogs. And I am talking male dogs, female dogs the lay person could not do at home.

I am happy to help you anyway that I can. Hang in there it does get better.
BethT
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CarolC
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Catheterizing info

Post by CarolC »

Hi Sandy,

I just realized they told you to catheterize him every 4-6 hours while he is on steroids. I missed the part about steroids. That is even more progress. Steroids tend to make them thirsty and they drink more so the bladder fills up more. If he wasn't on steroids you could catheterize every 8 hours.

What steroid is he on? Here is a website with info on different medications.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/pharmacy_center.html

Some people give Pepcid AC to protect the dog's stomach while on steroids (can cause ulcers). The dosage for dogs is 0.25 mg/lb once or twice a day according to the Pill Book Guide to Medication for Your Dog and Cat, but check with your vet. My dog was on several weeks of prednisolone when he went down and we didn't have any tummy trouble with it.

Based on the fact that he is on steroids, I would crate him. Steroids are to make inflammation go down, and moving around causes inflammation. Also, the steroids are likely to make him feel better so he wants to try to get up and walk around before he should, and crating will prevent that. Just wanted to warn you, when I had to crate my golden retriever, he whined quite a bit. There was nothing I could do about it, I had to use tough love and he had to be crated. He whined less after a few days. I think partly he got used to the idea that he had to be crated, and partly his back began to feel better. :)

With a large dog like that, it may work better not to use a crate. Otherwise you are forever bending into the crate trying to tend to him, and it is awkward. Something like an exercise pen would be perfect. I remember one family that blocked their dog off with furniture at the end of the hall. You could babygate him into the laundry room or pantry or guest bathroom or anyplace that is small enough. Whatever you can do to confine him is good, it doesn't have to be in a crate. The advantage of an x-pen is you can just open the side and walk in, and you can put it anywhere so he can still be part of the family.

Below is a link to the bladder care page. If you click the section on Catheterization, it has good instructions from Beth on how she did it, as well as a vet school webpage where they train their students how to do it (pictures are graphic).

http://www.handicappedpets.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Express_a_dog_or_cat

I emailed Toni and also sent a message to Murphy's Dad, so I hope they will be by this weekend with some advice.

Did they give him any pain meds?
ssg
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by ssg »

I spoke too soon. The vet at this hospital was new and thought she could send home catheters for our use. After she consulted with another vet, she was told it was too much of a liability, so I'm back to square one. If I can't express urine, nor I can't catheterize, I'm sunk.

I just read through the catheterization link, which is a bit scary, because it mentions possible perforation and possible death if not done properly.

I had tears in my eyes when I read about Ivan's journey with spinal degenerative disease. It gives me a lot of hope and something to hold on to.

I need to know if I should have more tests, such as an MRI or CT scan, just in case he also has a disc problem that x-rays can't pick up. I don't want to spend money if I don't have to. I'd rather save for a cart to help my Klaus.

Thank you!
Sandy
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by missmabelline »

Hello and welcome:

I was reading through all the posts. My bulldog puppy Mabelline was diagnosed with five hemivertebrae (deformed vertebrae) in her thoracic spine this summer. One day she was fine, and the next, she could barely walk. For about four weeks, she could not walk at all. I had an MRI done, and the neurologist said it showed severe cord impingement that was irreversible. The neurologist that diagnosed her told me that I should euthanize her because it was a virtual guarantee that she'd become paralyzed and I wouldn't want to "bother" with her then (apparently, she figured that since Mabelline was only five months old when this happened, I might not be so attached to her; what an idiot). Anyway, I did NOT euthanize her. I crate rested her, and then began therapy with her (on my own, with the consultation of a rehabilitation doctor). I swam her and did exercises on the yoga ball. Mabelline completely recovered and walks, runs and plays just as she did before it all happened.

I kept Mabelline's discharge sheet from that neurologist because it reminds me to always question "authority" and to go with my gut instinct.
Bulldogs Rule!
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CarolC
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by CarolC »

Hi Sandy,

I am so sorry about the trouble over the catheter. It is a good reminder that they do not do things the same way in all parts of the country (and certainly not in all countries). Do you think that the liability issue is just a concern of that particular veterinary hospital, or do you think it is more widespread? It could be just the rule for that single practice, perhaps based on how their insurance is written, I don't know. I wonder if it would do any good to offer to sign a liability release?

Hopefully Toni will have a good answer on the further testing. The only thing I'd say is, if you're going to do more tests, a myelogram is considered diagnostic and would probably cost less than a CT or MRI, but discuss the risks and advantages with your vet.

If the steroids are making him drink more, you may have better luck expressing his bladder. I would certainly try it. I was just hoping you could avoid too much lifting. The link to the express page shows ways to express a large dog. It has a description of how Tiffany expressed her male German Shepherd. It also discusses how several people have expressed large/heavy dogs by putting a sling under the tummy and lifting up. Lifting puts pressure on the bladder and urine is released. Often people discover that trick (problem) by accident when they put a towel under their dog's tummy to help him walk outside and he wets on the way out!

His bladder may improve with the steroids, so that is something to hope for. I am sorry you are having such a hard time. You are doing everything right, it isn't you.

I hope someone else will have some good ideas for you. Glad at least your dog is OK for now.
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Dianne
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by Dianne »

Good Morning,

I am having great difficulty with the vet's logic:

"...After she consulted with another vet, she was told it was too much of a liability." Do you mean: Too much liability to teach you how to catherize because you might introduce bacteria that could be treated with antibiotics?

First, they suggested you euthanize. Then they wouldn't show you how to catherize because you might *hurt* your dog? Whoa...who planned to do the hurting! They did.

I don't remember any incidents of people who catherize on this bb hurting their pets.

I'm beginning to understand how they have confused you with their mixed messages. You are in a tough spot this weekend, as it is difficult to interview a vet's office and go elsewhere. Monday will soon be here. I would look elsewhere.

If you post a city where you live, there may be someone on the bb who has experience there, and could recommend a vet.

Dianne
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karkorny
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by karkorny »

Hi, Sandy. Bully's mom here! Anxious to hear how it's going for you. I agree about the sling - that's how Bully first peed on his own, me trying to lift him with a sling. I obvoiusly "found" the bladder that time. Was able to capture the urine in a bottle several times when that happened. I think I need to go back and read your posts, I think I've missed some stuff. Where are you geographically? And how big is your pup? Anyway, I think one big mistake is making any serious decision early on. All this talk of euthanasia by well-meaning friends and vets - as I encountered just two or three days in - is foolishishness. Things are so unpredictable at this stage. Take a deep breath, take one day - one minute - at a time and deal with it. What needs to be done will fall in place. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Karen
ssg
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by ssg »

I live in San Diego.

You have a point there regarding the mixed messages. These vets, and I've seen three different ones over the past three days, have told me the same thing; that there's a liability issue here. No one wants to help me help my dog with the most basic needs. The only one willing was a brand new vet who, unfortunately consulted with the old timers before telling me that she couldn't send one home with me.

I think my sweet boy is depressed now. He doesn't cry any more, just lies there. When I got up this morning, he was in the same position I laid him down in last night, whereas the night before he was able to switch positions.

I don't know if I should do any further testing to rule out possible spinal tumors and disc herniations. If his spondylosis was shown to be advanced on x-ray, then perhaps it could stop him suddenly from walking any longer. Have I stopped too soon with the testing?

I know someone mentioned waiting 6 weeks before carting an animal, but that was before I learned about the spondylosis. Do you think it would help to order one now? Or should he remain as quiet as possible. I think it would help his depression if he could follow me from room to room like he always did before. He's my little shadow and foot warmer. It miss that so much.

Sandy
millard
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by millard »

I also live in San diego. Have you tried the Veterinary Specialty Hospital located in Sorrento Valley. They are a pet hospital not just a vet clinic or office.
ssg
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by ssg »

Not yet. My last trip in, I took him to California Veterinary Specialists in San Marcos, which is north county's version of that hospital. Very reputable overall. I will give them a call Monday to see if they'd be willing to help me with all this. Problem is, they'd probably want to see him and I'm running low on emergency funds.

Is that where you received cath supplies?
Sandy
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connie
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Re: My dog slipped a disc today.

Post by connie »

oh god, another vet that wants dog to be put down, jeez.
sandy, i have a small yorkie mix. last nov. he had a ruptured disk for no reason at all. i gave him surgery at not much odds, but now he is fine. he is not completely walking like normal, but he runs all over my house and yard. so healthy and happy.
but listen to carol and read those sites.
CRATE REST is main important thing , as well as expressing bladder. and they CAN be cathed!, i live in a redneck small town and even my vet does that. i believe i would first find another vet, there are caring ones out there. my vet recommended me to another in another state who did cricket's surgery and he lets me pay it off each month some. it never hurts to ask. another thing, maybe with strict CRATE REST will heal without surgery, some here has. cricket had to be in crate for 6 weeks, only out for me to empty bladder and do range of motion on his hind legs. please don't let your dog drag itself, it can cause more damage. it needs time just like we do to heal.
also he might need some pain meds for a bit. cricket was on two, and was off them within 3 weeks. he didn't eat much at first, but slowly got better. SO, CRATE REST, BLADDER EMPTY, MEDS AND NEW VET . bladder is so important, if not empty it could get a bad infection. like carol says, if you see wetness, most likely it is bladder overflow, you must get urine out. most have bowel movement while paralyzed, but bladder no. it gets easier , trust us.
i know the stress, i cried so much i got sick and was in E.R.. . PLUS cricket was in so much pain till i got to vet , that when i picked him up, he bit my finger to the bone. he would never do that if he wasn't hurting, so be careful about lifting pet.
we are here to help, ask us anything. but believe me when i say we see miracles every day. my cricket is a miracle, his 2 vets are amazed over him. deep pain in yours is a DARN GOOD SIGN. most of us here didn't have even that much hope to go on.
whatever you do, please crate and get urine out right away.
prayers to you all.
hugs,
connie and cricket
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Toni
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spondylosis and Ivan

Post by Toni »

Carol emailed me directly and told me of your dilemma!!!

check out...

http://www.handicappedpets.com/gallery/ivan11/index.htm

That is the link to Ivan's page on Handicappedpets.com

Ivan was our most loved 160lb hairy son. He had spondylosis the last 1 1/2 years of his life and still had tremendous quality of life. He used a wheelchair. His hindlegs were not toatlayy paralyzed buthe coud not walk without the wheelchair most of the last year and a half. We basically told our vet we were getting Ivan a cart. Most everyone I've known who has had a dog, larger dogs in particular, with paralyzing spondylosis, are advised to either have surgery or euthanize their best friend! One of my customers had the surgery done on their German Shepherd at the University of Minnesota, a very reputable veterinary clinic. They were advised there were risks..but were never told about the cart (wheelchair) as an option. Their dear friend ended up completely paralyzed and after several weeks they ended up saying goodbye to their dear friend. When they found out 6 months later (when they saw Ivan) that they could have tried a cart, they were devastated. It is most unfortunate that more vets aren't aware about how well these carts work and how many people are happily willing to go through a little extra effort for the sake of their beloved!

I don't know if anyone discussed experessing the bladder in the thread. While it is more difficult in a larger dog, it is not impossible. It can be done with the dog lying on his side...the most difficult part is figuring out just what is the bladder if you've nver done it before. I would put a depends or baby diaper or such underneath to collect the urine. ONce you get him in a wheelchair you can express him outside while he is upright..this will keep things much cleaner and easier...and I know of people who have used their legs on either side of the dog to help give them the extra "umph" to express the bladder on a large dog. If you need ideas or suggestions on this just let me know. Now that I am on the thread I should get notified everytime there is a new message.

When you go to Ivan's page you will read that we found acupuncture and shockwave therapy to be very helpful for him (it takes several months for the effects of the shockwave therapy to really become apparent). The wheelchair gave him the mobility and independence he enjoyed so much...not to mention he loved the attention being different got him!

Just how big is your furry son? I liked the doggonwheels cart, as I could ust the "saddle" that holds the dog into the cart as a walking sling to get him in and out of the car (Ivan went to work with me every day) and up and down stairs and in and out of the house (small house and big dog with wheelchair not very compatable..so couldn't use it inside). The cart is well made and I beleive they have used carts availabel as well. They are wonderful people to work with...although I believe all the cart manufacturers are very understanding and helpful.

I hope Ivan's experiences help you and yours a bit.

(sorry about spelling/grammer errors..I'm not going to proof this....)

Toni, Pavel, Sophie, Peppo, Eleanora, and all the other Critters
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