Trouble expressing

[Xkapuax]

My dog, a great dane / English mastiff mix, had a bleed in his spine a couple of weeks ago and have been slowly healing. But now I'm having a hard time trying to express him. As soon as I touch and put some pressure, especially on his left side, he lays down and starts whining. He's currently on antibiotics because he has a uti so I'm not sure if that's part of the problem but it's getting frustrating being unable to express him. The cost of taking him to the vet to get a catheter doesn't help either. If I do start to get some urine out he tries to lick it.

My vet is closed tomorrow, Sunday, but on Monday I'll take him back and talk to the vet techs.

[CarolC]

It is encouraging that you are able to get some urine out, I would just be happy about that and maybe not be too concerned that he tries to lick it?

There are ways to express a dog lying down, it is often done with large dogs, so here are some links to videos, maybe you can try it with him lying down. The antibiotics usually kick in pretty fast so if he is uncomfortable from a UTI, that will normally be gone in a couple of days in my experience. Another idea that you could try is facing backward. In other words with the dog in a standing position, stand over him straddling him with you facing his tail. Squeeze his shoulders between your knees and squeeze his abdomen to express him. It is possible you may get your shoes wet depending on how strong the stream is, but he will not be able to turn his head around and try to lick it if you have him clamped between your knees. We had one person do it this way with a german shepherd after an FCE because it also helped her keep him standing. If you decide catheterizing is the best way to go with him, ask the vet to give you the equipment to do it at home. They can teach you how to do it. But if you can express him, that would be my first choice.

http://www.scoutshouse.com/videos/video_bladder.html Expressing four different sizes of dogs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhXQdKzAdN0 Expressing a male dachshund

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Saf_kZvwClE Expressing female dachshund into the toilet (1:25-1:40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPg3Z0OIovo Expressing male dachshund onto puppytraining pad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzy7mrOBjz4 Expressing male dachshund lying on his back

http://www.wonderpuppy.net/copper/resources.htm Video and audio instructions for expressing a dachshund

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mb500Gtvv88&NR=1 Expressing small male dog in standing position ("Peeing" Mac: Part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7l2861NTnI&NR=1 Expressing small male dog in standing position ("Peeing" Mac: Part 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoYWs6OEfJI Expressing small female dog standing on the counter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm9TiCg11qs Expressing male French bulldog lying on his side (2:20-4:15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CVtjghnxn4 Expressing small male dog lying on his side (1:00-3:00)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1CTMyWClAk Expressing female dog lying down - Part 1 (good info for all sizes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfMqtyzRb7I Expressing female dog lying down - Part 2 (good info for all sizes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7JxBy56k_g Expressing male poodle in standing position

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d18yUDdZVUw Expressing medium large dog in standing postion with external stimulation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp1u_sC4Ad8 Expressing medium large dog in standing position indoors (2:20-4:10)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9EslzNS6xE Expressing large (over 50kg/110lbs ) male dog with bare foot (caregiver has disabled shoulder)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlbYCoZ5HqI Expressing large male dog standing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHD0L2rJAcw Expressing large male dog lying on his side, cupped hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEHSxUf2Nb8 Expressing large dog using closed fist technique

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw6_T2FewZM Expressing large pitbull in a wheelchair (4:00-5:05)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXBkez3jxB8 Expressing a male German Shepherd dog lying down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbdPXgynVC8 Expressing large female dog over your knee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrv5Wzi1KR0 Expressing small male dog using fingertips, 2 positions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=758ol0nkWx4 Expressing small male dog, 2 positions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAaLdeJCIkw Expressing one-handed or two-handed

[Xkapuax]

thank you for the quick reply. i've watched a lot of videos but i think i'm still getting the area where his bladder is wrong.

the vet techs say they get a lot of pee out of him when he gets the catheter but at most i get is a dribble. when he first got the UTI it was extremely easy to express him but now he protests. sigh. i'll go through these videos and hopefully i get more information. my mom tries to help me but all she really does is dangle food in front of him and makes things worse, lol.

[Xkapuax]

because of his size, unless i can get more pressure on his bladder to express him they suggested doing a foley catheter. i can't find a whoooole lot of info on it so i left a message with his neuro vet to ask him about it.

[CarolC]

Sounds good. It will be easier for both of you not to have to keep running to the vet. Here are a couple of posts from one of the moderators who catheterized for male pitbull for a number of months.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4289&p=22203&hilit ... ile#p22203

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4289&p=22201&hilit ... ile#p22201

As far as pressure on his bladder, the video showing the closed fist method is a preferred method for large dogs if you are not strong. Even though that video is not in English, it shows it very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEHSxUf2Nb8 Expressing large dog using closed fist technique

[Xkapuax]

i really appreciate you responding <3

[critters]

Can he stand? If not, some people have rigged ladders and the like to hold their puppers in a standing position so that gravity can help.

Also be aware that the complaining while expressing may NOT necessarily be from pain or discomfort. Many critters don't like expressing and so complain about it, so it can be hard to know the difference.

[Xkapuax]

he can stand and walk fairly decently on his own. i've seen a couple of makeshift stations, mainly the ladder one, but i feel like my dog would be able to topple it over. i've looked up medication, other station ideas, slings, etc. i've tried giving him a rub down to try to get him to relax before i try to express him, give him treats, positive reenforcement, etc. i just don't know. i was going to see about learning to catheterize him myself but i'd definitely need at least two other people to hold him down and my mom doesn't have the strength to do it.

[Xkapuax]

yay for small victories!

i finally figured out a couple of ways to help express him. one was using an old pillow case to gently lift him and let gravity help (i think it was mainly finding the right spots to get with him) and the other with trial and error with hand positioning and trying to figure out how his bladder feels i finally got it! he won't let me express him completely but at least i've got him some relief. when he's a little on the full side he'll actually pee a little on his own when we walk and he smells a spot he likes too, which gives me some hope for him. also today he pooped twice already when i took him out.

things are starting to look a little better with him even though i keep doubting myself and especially how much i can endure financially with him.

i very much appreciate the feedback and replies.

[CarolC]

That is great news! Yay!!! Glad you found a way to express that works better with your big dog, whew! And the part about him peeing when he sniffs a spot is VERY encouraging. Woohoo!!! Most dogs with an FCE will recover and go on to live normal lives.

I think you would like this post:

What a wonderful day today!!!
I called up to Medvet and told them about the problem we were having expressing her.
The nurse told me to try taking her out in the yard and placing her sling under her and lifting her slightly off the ground with it, this way the pressure would be across her whole abdomen without too much direct stress on her wounds.

IT WORKED!!! She urinated seven times throughout her walk. We were so happy we were crying! LOL The small joys in life, right?
Not only that, but she was trying to use her bad leg walking, it was just wonderful, she enjoyed it and she went. It was great.

[Xkapuax]

that's exactly the post i read that made me decide to try it

[ghelerter]

All the youtube videos and tips on expressing dogs seem to be paralyzed and not large breeds. Our 100 pound lab just had FCE and a week out is walking but unable to completely empty his bladder and impossible (including Vets and specialists) to express him. Seems the bladder can be "soft" and unable to manipulate. Meds not working yet. We are catherizing him at home which is terrifying to me but I'm learning and doing it. He already has a UTI but, then again, he hasn't been without a cath since the FCE 7 days ago. He seems so normal except for the urination problem. Apparently most put their dog down when this is the case but we are giving him every chance we can. Wish we could express but not happening. He has half lifted a leg and some pee. Not sure if that is a good sign or a sign of the UTI. He isn't in pain or suffering according to all doctors and PTs involved. Has anyone had experience with catheterizing their dog at home? Of one coming back from this and how long out?

[CarolC]

I heard/read that 85% of dogs with FCE will recover. Of the 15% that do not, either the owner gave up or the dog gave up. It's not hard to see what is meant by "the owner gave up". I asked my dog's physical therapist about this and she confirmed the 85%. She said that some dogs will give up because they are just too stressed and depressed with too many vet visits and so on. Therefore, one of the main things to do with a dog with FCE is keep his spirits up.

If he is already walking and lifted his leg and urinated a little, I would take that as a sign he did it voluntarily and intentionally, and I would be optimistic. They say with spinal cord injury you need to give it 3 months to see if bladder control will return and 6 months to be sure, but if your dog is already hiking his leg and urinating *at all* then it sounds like he will be getting it back sooner rather than later, and some dogs on this board have started to regain bladder control well after 6 months, so it's just a guideline, not a deadline.

Catheterizing should be fine if it is letting you get him empty. One of the moderators here catheterized her male dog because it worked better for her. There are some videos for expressing a large dog, either standing up or lying down, and I will post some of the links, but it isn't necessarily better to express instead of catheterizing, the main thing is just getting his bladder empty. But you can watch them and see what you think. The ones using a cupped hand and closed fist might be most effective. It sounds like you won't have to do it for long, if he is already trying to piddle by himself!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d18yUDdZVUw Expressing medium large dog in standing postion with external stimulation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp1u_sC4Ad8 Expressing medium large dog in standing position indoors (2:20-4:10)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9EslzNS6xE Expressing large (over 50kg/110lbs ) male dog with bare foot (caregiver has disabled shoulder)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlbYCoZ5HqI Expressing large male dog standing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHD0L2rJAcw Expressing large male dog lying on his side, cupped hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEHSxUf2Nb8 Expressing large dog using closed fist technique

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw6_T2FewZM Expressing large pitbull in a wheelchair (4:00-5:05)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXBkez3jxB8 Expressing a male German Shepherd dog lying down

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbdPXgynVC8 Expressing large female dog over your knee

[Xkapuax]

i can only encourage you to keep trying to express your dog. for me i kept taking him out every hour or so after he was fully expressed by catheter and try to feel for his bladder. i touch my finger tips together and place them above where his penis ends and feel for his bladder. my dog's bladder is usually in the palm of my hand but i have fairly large hands. my dog will also sometimes tense his bladder so i can't express him manually, and that is a possibility for what your dog is doing when you try to do it too. sometimes he's willing to let me do it and often times he refuses to let me go near his backside because he knows what's coming, lol.

hope this helps a little. hope this also makes sense because i just got off of an extremely busy night at work.

[ghelerter]

We had our 95 pound lab (now 89 pounds) on a foley catheter but has to be removed after a few days (48 hours) and put in by a Vet. We have decided to catheterize him at home using a 22 inch flexible cath (stiff caths cause more problems). Twice a day. 10 days out and he shows no sign of voluntary pee but is now sleeping well at night (hates not being able to go upstairs to his usual bed). I sleep downstairs with him for encouragement and routine. He does have have a UTI but that is not unexpected considering he has been catheterized in one way or the other since onset of FCE. Still can't figure out how to express. His bladder is so soft and meds to contract aren't helping much. Also doesn't help he has feeling and is not totally paralyzed. He can tense up and make things more difficult. He does try to lift his leg and some urine comes out in a stream but whether voluntary or not, not sure. Giving him Lots of car rides, walks, smells and encouragement. PT starts on Tuesday. I can't help but worry if the bladder doesn't wake up, what his quality of life will be. Catheterizing him is a big commitment for us but we are older and able plus we have great vets and support. Even so, the stress is overwhelming sometimes. Especially knowing I need an extra set of hands to catheterize him and what happens in a emergency if no one is here to help. Trip to the ER.
Wish I could learn to do myself.