Possible Beagle Rage HELP??

[westminster pet sanctuary]

We have had a beagle here in rescue for over a year and a half. He was sent to us from a HS with a "serious heart murmur". Got him here, two Vet's checked..no murmur..huh??

After about a month or so of him being at the Sanctuary, he appeared to be a nice beagle, so we put him up for adoption.

The new family loved him (and they had Beagles all their life)..two months later I got a call, saying the dog bit their child and the wife unprovoked. They were in the kitchen, he was lying in his basket in the living roiom when out of no-where, he came charging up and bit them.

My first thought was "What did THEY do?" (sorry it is something pretty much all who rescue assume first)

Brought him back to the Sanctuary, all was going well, until about the two month mark, when he was sitting in a chair, and my daughter walked by..out of no-where he lunged and bit her hand (she is okay) I saw it unfold..completely unprovoked.

Brought him back to the Vet..she initially suspected dominance aggression. Suggested taking away all possesions, and taking a stronger alpha position. We also did a FULL health screening and all bloodworks..nothing abnormal..by all accounts a physically healthy dog.

Well..that was a miserable failure, as this dog stared me right down to nothing (keep in mind I have dealt with dangerous breeds before, and can read some warning signs) In my mind, no doubt, had I stood atop him, I would have gotten nailed no question.

I put him under a self imposed muzzle order in public and around the children. The Vet agreed in order to avoid him be determined as a "dangerous dog."

He continued to snap over months here at the sanctuary..stare you right in the eyes almost wanting you to challenge. I was bit once by him. My husband told me, the dogs know I am a softy at heart and can read me like a book, no matter how alpha I try to be.

So my husband (who BTW is gentle as a lamb with animals..just has that more authoritative voice)..The dog listened to him..until one day..SNAP..was right up in his face ready to go.

So why am I writing today?? Well everything was quiet this morning when all of a sudden the dog "snapped" and started to growl up close and personal to me..no reason I can assure you.

The Vet suspects he is a case of a "known bad line" of beagles that suffer from something similar to Cocker Spaniel rage.

I have worked with the Vet (who is also a behaviourist) who said..he must be put down before he seriously injures someone, and he is a walking cannon.

I asked about MRI's, CT 's etc..she said "Why..if there is an abnormality..you can do NOTHING about it and the result will have to be the same."

In my head..I know she is right..however in my heart I just do not feel right about it.

Our sanctuary has NEVER put down an animal that was not already dying without hope and without every possible medical intervention being done. When they die..I KNOW in my HEART and HEAD it was the ONLY option for the sweet soul of the animal that was suffering. I hold each one in my arms while they pass to their new journey and watch the pain change to peace..

I could not even do this if that was the decision we made for this dog..he would have to be retrained first, probably muzzled. It is a thought that makes me literally ill.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of behaviour? Would you say it is aggression or a rage issue?

I know we have done NOTHING to provoke the dog..he just snaps out of no-where (sometimes even sleeping)..and up close and personal, growling and staring you down.sometimes managing to bite if we are not quick enough to move..other times we are quicker (keep in mind he is muzzled around the children and in public)

Do I keep him muzzled 24/7?? To me that is no life either...

Any thoughts advice most welcome and appreciated.

[GabrielDeafBlindPupFamily]

Actually, yes, I have. And I am one of those who embrace Cesar's techniques in dealing with dogs. I treat my dogs like family members. We are a pack, and I AM THE ALPHA. Everyone minds me. AmbrrNanaDog is the canine Alpha and when I yell at anyone, she is the enforcer. She rushes to them, gives them a nip on the back of the neck and a growl. I have seroius aggression issues with my blindpup against my deafblindpup. I practice the alpha roll in my pack, but ONLY in my own pack. AllicksBlindPup gets into the aggression zone and is impervious to any commands to STOP, LEAVE IT, anything. She only attacks attacks attacks. So roll it is, and then confinement. I would not suggest this with the beagle, as it can be dangerous unless you know what you are doing.
I DO believe, though, that Cesar's alpha training with aggressive dogs is a wonderful solution to dogs otherwise condemned. Are you familiar? Get a DVD (at walmart or any book store) or visit his website.
Put dog on choke, high on head like show lead. Short leash. Do not look at dog, do not pay attention to dog. You walk, with sharp and short corrections when dog is not right by your side (not ahead, not behind) The lead dog never looks at the subordinates. Ever. They do what he says do. There is also a book called DogSpeak by Dash someone (I have it but my dogs ate it )
Quarentine beagle and work on trust first of all. Then alpha. If you cannot trust the dog, it cannot be adopted out. Beagles are highly intelligent and singularly focused on their way or the high way. (I used to have beagles) .
I believe Beagle rescue can help you out tremendously. All breeds have specific rescues. Go through AKC or google for beagle rescue, and see what they can do to help you out. Beagles are one of a kind.

[Cindidoxiemom]

I would also make sure his vision and hearing are ok. Sometimes random attacks like this are because the dog's vision/hearing are impared. I know it is a long shot...but something else to make sure of.
Cindi

[Murphy's Dad]

Sorry I have heard many stories about aggression, but this one stumps me.

It could be this poor guy was abused. It may take alot of work and care to coorect this behavior.

Another possibility is brain damage. If so, it may be near impossible to detect or correct.

I will put your post on my site and see if any of my members have any ideas.

[Dianne]

There is a type of epilepsy that manifests as rage. I see that you mentioned brain damage as a possibility. Brain damage can lead to epilepsy/seizures.

D

[westminster pet sanctuary]

Thanks for your tips..we have already ruled out epilepsy as this is controlled.

He also will pick on the weakest dog in the pack whenever he sees fit as well. (not a good thing when you are a Sanctuary with all in weakend states at various degree's..but he KNOWS who is weakest and seeks him out on occasion)

Whereas with epi's, they do not know what they are doing..this dog knows.


His hearing and vision are also perfect trust me...
I asked other rescue groups to help with this dog..NO ONE offered to help. If you know of a beagle rescue that will help me GREAT..please give them my email I would really appreciate it alot!
I have dealt with beagles before..first time with this problem to this degree..where we cannot even determine if it is medical or a behaviour issue.
The dog presents it's behaviour 2 months following (eg what we call the honey moon period)

Was he abused..possibly..or was he turned into the humane society BECAUSE of this behaviour? We will never know.

He has had every bone in his body Xrayed, full bloodwork etc..
Nothing of the "usual" physical challenges.

The biggest problem here, is that this is a SPECIAL MEDICAL NEEDS facility, and we also have children. In other words we have to be very careful to control the behaviour whenever possible..and we know he is 'having a bad day"

We are open concept no one is put into quarantine(just do not have the facility to do it)

If we had thousands and thousands to spend on the MRI and CT scans trust me I would do it just to rule out..

However when you are forking out over $1000.00 in meds each month alone..in addition to regular vet visits, food, litter, special cleaning products (for the epi's who are chemically sensitive) and you receive about max $500 in adoption donations and otherwise each month..you have to be careful to where you spend your money.

Most people will donate when it comes to a dog that requires an amputation, has gone into status epileptis, starvation, abused..but you ask people if they can donate towards a dog that bites..well people are not interested in donating to help sadly.

BTW..we have a team of neuro's we work with..they are not cheap, and because it is not something that can be diagnosed quickly (without the CT or MRI possibly) it would take numerous visits.

as well the drug anapyrill (sp?) we even considered except
A) can make aggression worse
B) would not be easy to get him to take it without losing a piece of my hand

[LisainCAN]

Kelli,

Nicholas Dodman

http://www.tufts.edu/vet/facpages/dodman_n.html

has a few books out

http://www.randomhouse.ca/author/result ... horid=7171

In one of them, I seem to recall that he suggests that a brain tumour is the cause for these random, unpredictable attacks. In any case, he seems to be quite an expert on dog aggression.

Also, check out this site:

http://www.k9aggression.com/Aggression/ ... _main.html

Hope this helps,
Lisa.

[Murphy's Dad]

There have been a number of replies on BW about your problem. Here is the link to the thread:

http://www.abeagleworld.com/ubb/ultimat ... 1;t=005767

[westminster pet sanctuary]

He is having another "bad day" today...he is terorrizing the weakest dog, will not even let him into the room.

The beagle walked into his crate and shut the door (yes he does this on his own)

Now everytime I walk by, or anything else moves he is growling, lunging against his crate door.

I do not even dare attempt to put a muzzle on him..he started this morning at 6:30AM.

I have the Nicolas Dodman book..it is my Bible so too speak..have even contacted him on one of our other dogs , which he was a tremendous help.

The more I read into rage the more I feel the Vet and behaviourist were onto something.

I am just so worn out with this dog...maybe we will try some phenobarb or something, treat as rage and see if it has any improvement.

sad part is..the dog can NEVER be adopted out EVER..and sadly for us at the sanctuary..NO ONE is safe and after reading up on this condition, I must really sit down and think before I take in another dog in a weakened state(special medical needs) due to the beagle deciding he may wish the new animal to be a "victim" as well...

[Christine]

What a tough, tough position you are in.if he only knew how fortunate he is to be where he is. I know time is running out for a safe solution. Just a wild hairbrained idea...wondering if you could contact Caesar for help. Not only would it make a good episode for his show and give you publicity and assistance, but just might get to the bottom of this.

Also, don't they make doggie Prozac? Has anything like that been suggested? This is such a scary situation to be in and all you want to do is help - my heart goes out to you.

[westminster pet sanctuary]

Dr Dodman suggests possible anti-convulsants (seizure meds) be used in rage.

I have put in a call to Tufts..but you are right, I feel as though time is running out and I am somehow letting this dog down.

first thing..the dog should NOT be here.

I take in special medical cases ONLY..and although I do realise the dog does have a condition..he does not fit in with our other requirements which are
1. Must be good with other dogs
2. with cats
3.with children.

We do not take in "aggressive" animals because all of ours are pretty much unable to defend themselves..nor do I want them to be in such a position. I will deal with certain aggressions (like food) as most rescues have that anyway and it is relatively easy to deal with. Other dogs that give warning signs as well I will work with..but from being asleep..to...SNAP..way out of my element here.

So I could be a coward and send him back to the HS that sent him to us with no background info other than owner relinquishment, with heart condition (and I will repeat NO HEART CONDITION!)..but I will not do that..I will not have
A) the chance he be adopted out to some unfortunate soul who had no clue and read in the papers afterwards "Beagle rips apart childs face, child permanently disfigured"

B) I will never allow him die alone, without him knowing there is someone out there who does care.

Today he has decided he WILL NOT leave his crate..attack anyone who goes near it (people or any other dog..including our own dog, a rescue, who does not have a medical condition but is a lab/boxer cross that he usually loves to romp with except on days like today.)

I am hoping Tufts will help, as for The dog whisperer, he apparently is not taking in any new cases from what I understand.

I cannot take in any new rescues until we either have this under control with the Beagle (I will try what Tufts suggests trust me)..or otherwise. I will not put any other animal in harms way..right now I can manage the best I can to "protect" the ones here..but I honestly do not think I can do it if we had anymore.

The whole situation has put all the animals on edge too..they just do not understand why he is doing this..and now the others are walking on "eggshells" so too speak.

I could just cry..but realise tears do no good..only action will.

[Murphy's Dad]

WPS,

Do not make this a "I'm letting this dog down" speech. You are not. You are doing more for this beagle than his previous owners and HS ever did combined. They let this dog down by shuffling him off on you.

Sadly there are some lost causes in our world, you may have found one. But do not call it that until you have exhausted all your options.

Know full well you gave this dog his best chance and all the compassion you have.

[Cindidoxiemom]

Very well said Murphy's dad! Very well said!
Cindi

[westminster pet sanctuary]

Well now he is back to being his "sweet beagle" self..asked to come out of his crate with tailwags and kisses, wanting to play with our dog in our dog park...

rolled around in the muddy snow, happy as can be..took the opportunity to put gentle muzzle on in the process he did not mind a bit..

Had I had tried the gentle muzzle earlier..I have no doubt I would be getting stitched up right now.

I know Murphey's dad, you are right it is a rescue guilt complex I have..

If they are so sick their quality of life is terrible..that I can handle...

But seeing a Beagle who goes from being "sweet, bouncy, fun-loving, playboy" to "Cujo" within a moment is just so hard to deal with.

[Cindidoxiemom]

Kelli~
Your devotion is amazing! I hope that whatever is causing this dog's issues, behavioral or organic, can be discovered.

Have allergies been brought up as a possibility?

Keep us updated, and know that you have our full support!
Cindi