Other: Slipped Disc in Neck

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Dianne
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:00 pm
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Hi Janice

Post by Dianne »

It looks like you have things covered. Paul is correct that you have a loving attitude. Half of the battle is staying positive, even when things are at the lowest.

The next hurdle will be keeping her free of urinary tract infections (UTI's). You WILL need a vet if her urine changes color or smells foul, so it is important to try to express as much urine as possible. Hopefully, you are able to do this at least 3 or 4 times per day.

Several others have posted saying that they don't always get a steady stream of urine, sometimes a dribble, and then if they wait 10 minutes, they get even more urine.

IF you suspect a UTI, you would need to do a clean catch in a very clean jar; refrigerate the sample if you can't get it to the vets within about an hour. A UTI can kill, so try your darndest to keep her free. My dog had one suspected UTI within the last 10 months and the urinalysis ($26) was normal. A few others on this board have not had such good luck with UTI's.

Even if you don't like the vet, you could use the vet for a urinalysis, as the dog stays home, and only the sample goes there. You call ahead, drop off the sample, and then call back for the analysis.

NEXT, you should really consider interviewing other vet hospitals in your area to find one that is compassionate to your situation. I did NOT have one when my dog went "down" in February, had recently moved into the area, and only recently have discovered a vet who will work with "downed" animals. I REALLY don't understand the attitude of MANY vets toward downed animals. There is absolutely no patience nor compassion. Too bad there is not a Hippocratic oath for vets.

Keep posting your progress.

Dianne
Janice

Re: Hi Janice

Post by Janice »

Thanks to all of you for your kind words. But, I would not have even thought I could have managed this without the support from this group.

When I express, I do get a fair amount (at least, now I am since I'm doing it properly!). I don't really have a sense if this is a normal amount for her or not (since I really couldn't see how much she was going before!). She is on antibiotics because of the sore on her leg. And, they're pretty strong antibiotics (clindamycin). So, hopefully, that will keep any potential UTI at bay. I had no idea a UTI could be fatal (she's had two of them in the last year).

It's funny because it was easy to just walk by her before all of this. She's old, so she normally just laid on the floor all day anyway. But now, I tell the kids to make sure they pet her (especially rub her back legs), and say hello and good-bye to her. Our other dog isn't quite jealous, but he is wondering what's going on (instead of sitting near the window to look out, he now lies right next to me, so close to me, that I have to put my feet on top of him if I'm sitting on the couch). Thank goodness it isn't him I have to carry (he's 90lbs.!).

I think Chelsea might be a bit bummed that she can't walk around, but I don't think she's sad about it. Thank goodness for that, too.

Janice
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Dianne
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Location: Tennessee

Re: Hi Janice *LINK*

Post by Dianne »

A UTI can lead to kidney failure and death. Link below.

Dianne


http://www.barkbytes.com/medical/med0080.htm
Janice

Re: Hi Janice

Post by Janice »

The neurologist said that she probably got the UTI because it was too painful for her to squat long enough to completely empty her bladder. But, one of the conditions explained on the link you provided is interesting:

discospondylitis - septicemia that infects and inflames an intervertebral disk.

Ohhhh, guess what.....WE HAVE POOP (and internet access)!!!! Hooray! It was small, but it was there! There was also what I guess was pee on the pad. Am I wishful thinking to think that Chelsea used her own force (rather than it being an involuntary effort) to have the BM, and she ended up emptying her bladder, as well? That might mean more muscle control??

When I picked her up to take her outside, just as we got to the door, I heard her start to pee. I'm basically carrying her like you would logs for a fire (arms under her belly). I must be pressing her against me as I walk?? When we walked outside, all I had to do was keep holding her, and she kept peeing. Hmmm.... That's good and that's bad (if I walk too slowly, she'll end up peeing all over the living room floor!).

So, she's pooped, I know I can express her bladder (maybe too easily!), and I think she's getting better. :)

Janice
Janice

Discospondylitis

Post by Janice »

I'm wondering about the discospondylitis (septicemia that infects and inflames an intervertebral disk). Remember I said that Chelsea had other health issues? She has a huge "growth" on her front leg that the vet suggested I just watch (it wasn't really bothering her, and they were hesitant to do surgery because of her age). It got so big that it got what I believe to be a friction sore (from rubbing on her underside). The sore got a scab, but then Chelsea and my other dog started licking the scab, the scab came off, and then the sore got a *really* nasty infection (warning, not for the squeamish, so skip to the next paragraph if you are.......the sore ended up becoming a *huge* hole in the growth that resembled oozing (smelly) cauliflower).

We treated the infection with antibiotics, and then stronger antibiotics. And, she's still on antibiotics because of it. She probably has a month's worth of antibiotics left to take. The website I just looked on said that the normal course of treatment is to treat with antibiotics for 4-6 weeks.

Maybe this all happened to Chelsea because of a combination of back problems because of old age, which caused the UTI, having an active infection in her leg, and both the UTI and the leg infection spreading to her disks??

Janice
Janice

Re: Important Message

Post by Janice »

Thank you, Paul. It makes it a lot easier to be positive when you know there are people who support you.

Janice
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Dianne
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Location: Tennessee

Re: Discospondylitis

Post by Dianne »

Janice,

I didn't know anything about this discospondylitis (also spelled diskospondylitis) connection to an IVDD incident.
You may be on to something here with the UTI. In reading several other websites, there is definitely a connection between a chronic UTI and other illnesses.

I'll do a bit more research today.

Meanwhile, I hope that Chelsea is comfortable. The bowels will move automatically despite paralysis. It is the bladder that won't. You may still wish to read the "poop on demand" discussion inorder to help her have more predictable bowel movements. Sometimes just stimulating by rubbing the anus with a tissue will help present feces.

Dianne
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Dianne
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Re: Discospondylitis *LINK*

Post by Dianne »

Hi Janice,

I don't have any experience with discospondylitis, but found a few interesting internet sites for your reading.

"By in large, the most common causes of discospondylitis are secondary to bacteria which can be treated using a combination of sulfa drugs (sulfadimethozine, 15 mg/kg every 12 hours) and either cephalosporins (22 mg/kg every 8-12 hours) or enrofloxacin (5-7.5 mg/kg every 12 hours). I prefer the former combination and treat the infection for a minimum of 6-8 weeks. Radiographic repair usually lags behind remission of the infection; however, following the response to therapy and continuing therapy beyond the time of radiographic quiescence seem the best policy. In cases which do not respond, the urine should be reexamined and abdominal ultrasound of the kidneys performed, looking for evidence that fungal disease was the real cause. Rarely, the infection will result in bony compression or instability requiring surgical intervention. Most often, spinal cord compression is the result of soft tissue inflammation which subsides quickly with appropriate antibiotic therapy."

I can't say whether the UTI caused Chelsea's issues, but it might be interesting reading to learn about the discospondylitis.

Dianne



http://neuro.vetmed.ufl.edu/neuro/quadr ... /quad2.htm
Janice

Re: Discospondylitis

Post by Janice »

I'm worried about the UTIs. Her urine smells, and it's darker. We've sort of completely figured out expressing, but we still need to refine our technique. So, maybe it's just not all being voided??

Speaking of expressing, Chelsea constantly smells like pee now because she always gets it on her hind legs when I express her. I don't think shaving her will help. The only time she doesn't seem to get it on herself is when I pick her back up, and I start to carry her in. THEN, she pees again. I really must not be squeezing the right places when I put her down. When I'm standing up with her, the pee falls on the ground without getting on her (or me).

I gave her a bath last night, and boy was that not fun. I wipe her down with baby wipes after I express her, but she still smells. And honestly, it's not a pleasant smell.

I'm not a weak person, but I am getting discouraged. After seeing some (albeit small) improvement over the first few days, now I'm feeling challenged because I can't manage to express her without getting it on her, she's not showing any more improvement in her feeling or movement in her back legs, and she looks sad. I have to keep reminding myself that it's not even a week yet since she came home. But, she does look sad.

Keep reminding me it's only been a week...it's only been a week...it's only been a week...

Janice
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Dianne
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Location: Tennessee

Need Help!!

Post by Dianne »

Hi Janice,

A strong smell or change in the color could well indicate a UTI. The fact that she continues to leak when you are carrying her back into the house also makes it appear that the bladder was NOT completely empty. Is she still on antibiotics? Clavamox is ONE of the several drugs of choice for a UTI.

You might consider taking a clean catch to the vet for urinalysis. It will cost approx. $26. You can call ahead to be sure that they will accept the sample and analyze it. It might put your mind at ease, and Chelsea could stay home.

It is dang cold out tonight and snow is predicted for our area over the next two days. Had you thought about expressing her inside as Carol said? I have no problem with a dog peeing (or even more)in the house if it saves me getting chilled or cuts down on the lifting.

It took me a while to figure out the simplest and least messy way to do the expressing. My dog weighs only 25 lbs. and so I express on top of the dryer. It is easy to wipe off with Windex, and adjacent to a laundry sink where I keep the "diaper" pail. Think of it as having another baby. Is Chelsea's hind leg hair long so that it is tough to wipe off the urine?

I'm wondering if someone else could post about how to express a large (45 lb.) dog in a clean oil drain pan or SOMETHING in the house. Anyone else have a suggestion? Would a sitz bath help clean up a pup with wet hind quarters?

I can tell that you are REALLY tired this week. It started out looking hopeful, but now you really are feeling the weight of the work. It is WORK to help these pets. Try to get a good night's sleep tonight (Tylenol PM helps me), get out of the house alone soon, or do ONE thing that you enjoy. It helps.

I'm sorry that it is so difficult today.

Dianne
Janice

Re: Need Help!!

Post by Janice »

Hi Dianne,

She is still on antibiotics (Clindamycian 1 pill 2x a day). I think the other thing contributing to the smell is the wound in her leg (it's leaking "stuff"). I don't think I would feel so tired if she didn't look sad. I'm actually getting used to picking her up (she doesn't feel so heavy anymore), and taking her outside. It's not really a problem. I think I'm discouraged by not having figured out things "perfectly" yet. But, I know that's just me.

Thank you for the support. It helps. It really does.

Janice
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CarolC
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Re: Discospondylitis

Post by CarolC »

Hi Janice,

I agree with your suspicions of a UTI, and that's probably why she looks sad, it's got her feeling a bit under the weather. I was hoping you wouldn't have to worry about a UTI since she's already on antibiotics for something else, but I guess the antibiotics aren't specific for this type of infection. (It would have been nice!)

Don't feel bad, you're right on schedule. My dog got a UTI a week or so after I brought her home, and I was being very conscientious about expressing her. I took her to the vet in tears of fatigue and worry. The vet put her on antibiotics for the bladder infection and it made me feel much better because now I had another 2 weeks to improve my technique.

Chelsea is able to urinate when you get her started, but I'm guessing she isn't emptying completely? Paul Coover has one dog who has regained control, but Paul continues to express him just to be safe. You might have to do that for a while with Chelsea. Either they lack the sensation to feel they aren't quite empty, or they haven't regained complete muscle control.

My dog also regained a degree of control so that about 5 or 6 months after her injury she became able to help me as I expressed. This is part of the reason we are able to get it all, because I am squeezing as well as I can but she is also using her inner muscles so we express together. I ask her, "Ready, Freddy?" and then we go, and we pretty much get it all. :)

One thing I think would help keep the urine off her legs is if you could get a stronger stream going. I wonder if maybe she is urinating kind of a weak stream using her own efforts? With a stronger stream the urine will arc out away from her legs. I express my small dog into the bathroom sink, but more often than not I get some on my clothes because it spatters when it hits the sink. That's because it's a strong stream. It arcs out a couple of feet away from her. Sometimes when I have to express a second or third time to get the last little bit, she piddles straight down because there isn't much left. (I also think, as I mentioned before, that if you can find the right expressing method, she may lift her legs in a midair squat--then you'll have no worries about wet legs.)

I just re-read your description of expressing her:

> lay her on the grass, lift her up a bit, put the towel underneath of her belly so I can help hold her up, press a little on her bladder (she does need a little help to get started), let her go, then carry her back to the crib.

Have you thought about expressing her into a sink? It doesn't have to be the bathroom sink, it could be a utility sink like Dianne uses. Her dog was 37 lbs when they started, so not too different in size from yours. You could spread a puppytraining pad into the sink to keep the urine out of the drain. (I let urine go into the drain and pour bleach down every so often but I realize this isn't for everyone.) If you have her on the counter at waist level, you could hold her around the middle in the same lifting position you use to carry her indoors, and keep her hind feet on the counter and hopefully clean, while her rear hangs over the sink. You just need a sink somewhere with 3' of counter next to it. I know some people think it's more natural for the dog to go in the grass. I started out expressing my dog in the grass, too. It turns out we both like it better this way!

I'm sorry you're feeling down today, you sounded so on-top-of-the-world the other day. I wonder if your energy expenditure is catching up with you? Well, you have a right to feel tired. You've really put a lot into researching and appointments, not counting all the hands-on nursing. I remember the first weeks when I had my dog home. Even when I wasn't actually caring for her, my mind was on trying to think of ways to do things better, etc. It really took over all of my attention. It does get better. The first weeks are definitely the hardest. You hit times of mental questioning. However, every little bit of improvement is cause for celebration. Part of the reason you aren't seeing any encouraging improvement at the moment could well be the UTI. But if she didn't get a UTI in this situation, you wouldn't be getting the benefit of the full experience! :P Just kidding...no, wait a minute, I think that was true! Hang in there. You've been a poster child for New Moms of Paralyzed Dogs this week, I don't think I'm the only one who has been impressed. You've really been on top of it, a "quick study." Just keep on as you've been dong and remember, better days are coming!
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CarolC
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Dianne, this is the second time this has happened!

Post by CarolC »

I started writing a message and by the time I wrote it, the message board showed you had written a message a hour earlier. I'm sure I didn't spend an hour writing my message. The same thing happened earlier when you and I were both writing about bowel care. I'm leaving my message up this time, but I don't get what's going on. We're in different time zones but I thought the time hacks were standardized.
Janice

Re: Discospondylitis

Post by Janice »

Thanks, Carol. I'm hesitant to call the vet where I took her last because he was such a...boob. The mobile vet did call me back (after a week!), so maybe I'll call her for a prescription for the UTI.

I'm actually used to being tired (single mom of two young kids). I think I really am discouraged because I expect to see improvement so much sooner. This is my first experience with any sort of paralysis. All the other "illnesses" I've experienced (both in people and pets) seemed to so quickly respond to rest or medication. I tell those who question why I didn't make the other obvious choice that when she tells me it's time, I'll make that choice. I think I'm afraid she'll tell me it's time, or even worse, I'll want her to tell me it's time. How guilty does that make me feel!!!

You're right that it's a weak stream. However, when I pick her up to bring her back in, it's a strong stream. So, I'm obviously not squeezing in just the right place. Unfortunately, we don't have a utility sink; the washer is connected right to the drain.

I'm wondering if her spirits will improve if I get her a carrier (is that what it's called - I'm having a total memory lapse). Maybe she'll feel better if she can start getting around by herself. I've started putting her on the floor next to us when we're home. I thought it might make her feel more "normal" than being in the crib all day. She doesn't make any efforts to move, and I'm usually right next to her so I can stop her if she does try and drag herself.

Here's something very funny that all pet owners of paralyzed dogs can appreciate. I was looking at her, asking her if she was feeling okay. I was hoping for a "smile." Then, I thought I saw her try and wag her tail. I even said to the kids, "Oh look guys, she's trying to wag her tail!" Wrong, she was starting to poop.

Well, at least I don't have to worry about the pooping thing, anymore :)

Janice
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Paul Coover
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Re: Expressing

Post by Paul Coover »

Yes, we do have Pork Chop, who does pee on his own. We have had the same problem with him peeing on himself as you have. I do not take him outside- I take him to the tub to express him every morning. lately I have not been getting anything at all. He has been going entirely on his own. I clean him up after he is done while still in the tub. If I don't, he gets a urine rash.

I don't really want to stop expressing him, and I know it's kinda weird, but that is our "special time" together. I exercise his legs and run warm water on his back end and he kicks his legs for me. His legs are getting stronger every day. He pushes against my hands more and more.

I don't take Pork Chop or Johanna outside to "go" at all. I just let them do their thing on the tile floor and clean it up or they go in their cage or playpen and I clean it. Up here in Maine, it gets REALLY cold this time of year, and going outside in -10 to -20 degree temperatures isn't good for any of us!

It seems overwhelming right now, but know that it WILL get easier. You both have an adjustment period right now. The UTI's are always going to be out there, so keep an eye out for them. I am always looking at Pork Chop's urine to see if it changes. It is always darker than the others, but it doesn't change color. because I have no sense of smell, I have my wife check to see if it smells funny (she LOVES to do that!)
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