Recovery info please

[Gnasher]

Hello all. My dog is a nine year old collie/terrier type cross who had surgery in September 08 to remove some damaged discs and stabilise his spine. He does have a fair degree of nerve damage but was recovering well until early this year when he lost all energy and stopped walking.
The lost energy was eventually diagnosed as thyroid problems which is now treated and he has his energy back - so we are now trying to get him walking again. He has reflexes in both feet and deep pain sensation as well as full toilet control.
We spent a week at a rehab centre doing intensive treadmill treatment and acupuncture - but due to the distance involved we are now treadmilling somewhere closer to me just twice a week under supervision of the rehab centre. We also do lots of other exercises with him every day.
Over the last couple of days he appears to have made another bit of progress and has now managed a few seconds of standing unsupported - although this is still a bit hit and miss at the moment and he is particularly struggling with a weak left leg.
Can anyone give me an indication of what the likely other recovery stages are we have to look forward to and give me an idea of how long their own dogs have taken to recover and regain the ability to walk?
Thanks.
Dawn and Gnasher

[critters]

I wonder how good of a jumping off place his previous recovery is as to predicting this one? I can't recall anybody ever having such a large setback for any similar reasons. Still, since there shouldn't have been any further damage this go-around it seems like it should be a lot faster.

[Gnasher]

Thanks Critters.

Sorry - should have made it clearer before - his surgery was great and he came through it walking (although a little unsteadily) when he was allowed home just a couple of days after his op so we don't have a previous record to go by. We had built him up to around 20 minutes walk (almost a mile) by Christmas - then his energy levels dwindled to nothing as the thyroid problem started.

[critters]

No, I got it. Guess I was the one that wasn't clear!!

I can't remember anybody having such a big setback from thyroid problems; usually the setback is from more bad disks. Since there's no additional damage, it seems that the recovery would be a lot faster; I was just surmising that there might be a way of using the original recovery as a jumping off place to calculate the new one.

[k-9cart]

Hi,
Actually, hypothyroid animals can have neurologic signs that mimic progressive degenerative diseases such as degenerative myelopathy or mild spinal cord compression from a disk. Usually they are more mild than what Dawn and Nasher reported. However, the lack of energy usually resolves rapidly with thyroid hormone supplementation whereas the neurological signs typically require a few couple months to turn around. I am not sure how much the weakness/inability to stand is related to muscle wasting due to hypothyroidism and how much is neurological side effects of hypothyroidism. The lack of symmetry of the weakness sounds like you may have more than just hypothyroidism going on. The only way to rule out some concurrent disc issues would be to do more testing - preferably MRI, which is very pricey. One also needs to rule out lupus and rheumatoid arthritis type disease in collie dogs too. Alternatively, have you invested some sort of sling so that you can build up muscle tone in between therapist visits?

[Gnasher]

Thanks for that - interesting that hypothyroid can cause nerve problems too!
Gnasher does also have fairly extensive nerve damage from damaged discs so I think the majority of the not walking problem is down to that and his im-balance is due to less feeling on his left.. The area where the discs were removed is now plated to stabilise it which rules out MRI scans to see what is going on anyway - but his feeling in his feet has not deteriorated so I am pretty sure the majority of his stopping walking was due to losing energy due to the thyroid and he is just struggling to regain that now.
We do use a sling between sessions for walking him - just got a muscle stimulation machine to use daily now to try and help his weaker leg too so I am hoping we will start to see some greater improvement soon.
My own theory is that as he was already struggling to walk due to the nerve damaged he was using more energy than a dog normally would so the effect of low thyroid on his energy was so much greater than it would normally be - just really unfortunate I think.
We are back to see the rehab specialist on Wednesday so will see what she thinks of his progress. I think he did far better with the treadmilling he was getting there than we are getting locally so I think we may have to start travelling a lot more to get him walking.

[Gnasher]

Just trying to add a photo - this is Gnasher a few months after his original op - when he was being spoiled - just a tiny bit

[Gnasher]

Both vet and physio were really happy with the progress Gnasher has made yesterday so I guess we just need to keep up the work. He did work an awful lot better on the treadmill there than he is doing locally, but we took a film clip to show the local physio and hydro place in the hope they can try to help us calm things down and we can get him to work well locally. If we can't then I am going to have to take days off work to take him down to the more distant place once a week

[CarolC]

That was a cute pic. You said "calm things down", do you mean they have a lot of distractions in the local place where he does not do as well? The other thing is, in the same treadmill 2 different therapists can get different results from the dog by knowing just how high to set the water and just how fast to set the speed. It really is a case where tweaking and fine-tuning seems to make a big difference. Both of my dogs need help with balance and having the treadmill go faster lets them do a better job of working out and staying on their feet. Think of a small child learning to ride a bike. If the bike goes slow, they wobble wobble wobble. If the bike goes fast, they stay more upright. Also honestly, I think my dogs respond to the personality of the therapist. I wonder if you were to call the specialty place and ask to talk to the therapist, if she would remember what speed she had the treadmill set on. However, if they are different brands of equipment, maybe she could just say, "I found your dog did better when I sped it up" or "I found your dog did best at a slow speed" or something like that.

[Gnasher]

Thanks Carol

They both use the same type of treadmill and I have already told them the depth of water and speed to use the local place though are currently using a device to hold Gnasher up which he hates and also are quite loud - whereas the specialist does not use anything to hold him and stays quiet so he can hear me and focus on coming towards me. I have got a film clip now to show the local place how well he can do in the hope that they will alter the way they are trying to do things locally. Next session is Sunday so fingers crossed it will be better.

[k-9cart]

Gnasher is really cute. I would love to see a Gnasher picture on the treadmill.

I am confused about the original surgery with the need for plating to stabilize the spine. Did I miss something? I may be old-fashioned, but for disc prolapse this is rarely necessary. So it sounds like this was not a simple routine intervertebral disc surgery...

It is really interesting to hear the different results from different places on the same treadmill. Look if you are going to spend the time to go to the place further away, just be a bit more pushy and try and get them to do it right locally! You've been just such a great advocate for Gnasher so far one would not think this was necessary. But maybe you will have to bite the bullet and travel the extra mile.

Did you do the full course of acupuncture and decide that you reached the limit of results from it?

[Gnasher]

Thanks. Sorry - his whole story is long and quite complex!!
Gnasher was originally badly treated by his former owners and has had back pain for years which has mostly been treated by acupuncture which kept him pain free better than anything else. Fortunately I have a great local vet who does acupuncture!! He then started to have problems with his legs in January 2008 which got gradually worse and we did the rounds of x-rays, myleograms and MRI scans where they decided he had several discs which could be causing the problem. He also has a few other discs which looked slightly suspect and had a diagnosis of degenerative disc disease - although both my regular vet and I believe it is all caused by him being kicked before I got him. He was definitely very scared of feet at the time I got him and knew far better than any dog should that they can hurt. His surgery was in September 2008 and the specialist at the time said it was by no means certain that it would sort things out - and he does still have some other discs which don't look great. He has been having acupuncture with my regular vet since his op - and we still go from time to time. The specialist also does acupuncture - so the poor chap is used to being used as a pin cushion!!
He does have slightly more feeling in his feet now than he had before the op so hopefully if we can get the treadmilling sorted along with the rest of his exercises and physio we will get him walking again.
I have sent local physio details of what we have done and have next session tomorrow so fingers firmly crossed she can change things so he can treadmill well locally.
Film clip of him on the treadmill is below (if this works)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95CMXkSmWrc

[Gnasher]

Local treadmilling has now improved so we are on track with twice a week treadmill sessions and occasional reviews at the specialist centre which will be a bit easier to manage.

We have also been back to see my regular vet who was pleased with how he is doing - so we are finally on the right track - just slow progress I think.